Korg Forums

[Korghelper]

Although I don't use them, I've always assumed songstyles were used to replicate as close as possible one particular song... I can only guess, but I assume they are popular so one can play a well-known song as accurately as possible to the original, but with the added advantage of being able to restructure the song (add extra choruses, verses, skip to later parts, come back to earlier sections if dancers want more, or get up late, etc.).

But I wonder if many that use them have considered SMF's with Markers to achieve the same result? You can achieve all the above advantages, but also have the advantage of no longer needing to input the raw chords, freeing your LH up to do more traditional playing techniques (like you'd do if still playing in a band).

You also get full bassline movement, passing chords, voice leading, all the minutiae of real music that arrangers, no matter how well programmed the songstyle is, often miss.

Are there other advantages to songstyles that SMF's with Markers can't achieve? Do many of us use them for many different songs, and if so, how do you get around the very signature licks and Intro/Endings they usually have?

I'm curious to hear about songstyles' strengths that I may have missed, and from anyone that uses both techniques and why and when they choose either method...

[Sam CA]

I'm not sure what you mean by SMF song styles with markers. Unless you're using the style converter bot, all SMF files need to have markers regardless.

A style (any style) in general, CAN contain pre-recorded chord progression. You can customize a style to do just about anything you like. I've tried most things if not all, and excluding a few there's always a feature or workaround for everything else.

If a sequence contains a chord progression, you won't be able to change the chord in real time. You can only change the key. In this case the style becomes too specific for a particular song. You also need to remember how the style is programmed and which style element triggers which part of that song.

Then you have regular song styles, that kind of resemble a song, but they don't contain any chord progression, so you can still use them with similar songs.

Of course you can even have styles that contain 'some' chord progression. It's fun to experiment...

Edit:
What I wrote was only about Styles and Style Record mode.
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Sam

[Reuben]

I much prefer to use midi files over styles. I’ve had a Pa1x, now 3x and probably will go for the next 5x or whatever it may be called, but have never really gotten into using styles. Midis - if you put a bit of work into them via editing - like swapping out GM voices to higher quality sounds, always sound better to me.
I think the big danger of midis versus styles is the view that it is cheating - that it’s not really you playing- and this is a valid criticism if the midi is over-complicated. It’s important that you are doing most of the playing - so drop out the main backing instrument, be it piano or guitar, and play this yourself.
Also in a performance always do a few songs with no backing at all- just play the piano- this puts the audience at ease and they now know you actually can play.
I have put markers in a few of my midis to allow chorus repeats etc and this works very well. I also almost always add the lyrics and chords to the midi so these appear on the screen as I play.
What I do like about the Korg Pa series is that it is up to you what features you dig into. For me it’s midi editing and sound editing - for others it could be creating styles.
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[Korghelper]

@Sam I've tried out a few songstyles that were so specific, contained licks and fills that were so locked to one song it was next to impossible to do another song with them without it being obvious that you are doing a different song!

I'm not talking about songs 'roughly' in the style of a particular song, but styles that are EXACTLY in the style of a particular song...

I wasn't referring to 'SMF song styles with markers' but to actual SMF's with Markers. In other words, play a normal SMF, but be able to jump ahead or backwads to any pre-defined point in the song.

As to a pre-recorded chord structure, yes, I know that some songstyles contain them (and you basically play the first chord to set the key, then don't need any chord input at all) and most don't, you still have to input the chords. That always seemed such a waste, when one is doing so specific to one song that you can't really use it anywhere else!

All I'm trying to ask is, when a style is so locked into one song's use (without it being utterly obvious that you are using something intended for something else!), what's the primary advantage over an SMF with Markers?

Many of use use both styles and SMF's (the audience sure don't know!) and SMF's with Markers offer many advantages over songstyles when used for the song the songstyle is designed to be used on.

Perhaps the perfect amalgam of the two is to have Chord Sequences with Markers? You still use regular or songstyles, have the CS play the chords, but with Markers you get back the freedom to move around in the song's structure?

Essentially, I'm an old school, raised on playing in bands pro, and I often chafe at limiting my LH to having to do mostly rote duty inputting the chords, when it used to be a far more integral part of playing, either doing full fisted two hands piano playing, or playing two independent parts (usually on different keyboards, back in the day!). But without an SMF or a Chord Sequence, my LH is a prisoner to chord input. Personally, I think the idea of Markers on the CS is the best solution, but I currently extensively use SMF's with Markers so I can play more traditionally but still have live control over the song structure.

I was just interested in songstyle use, and anyone that could point the advantages over SMF's with Markers other than playing the wrong song on them!

[korg1]

I often use songstyles, depending my needs.
I sometimes use midi'es with markers.

There are two things you can't do easily working with midi'es in live mode :

1) Play another song in the same style pattern
2) playing non-stop songs at any order with cue,etc...

What i like on midies : idon't need to fit everything in 8tracks like styles.

On other hand,with styles i can do anything on the fly.

Also,songstyles doesn't always mean that they aren't generic too.
You can fit the whole song on Intros 1-2-3,and still have all variations and
fills ready to play another song ,or the same,solos etc...

You can visit my site for demos or my Fb page , and i just posted a demo of factory style Copacabana pop,which i change it a lot,added guitars brass etc, You can still use all new variations ,fills break and endings,and i just used Intro3 for the wholeintro-verse-chorus....if double pressed it loops again......

You can work in many ways....for me,playing 10 songs,using the same intro's and fills,just doesn'twork......For sure it doesn't work if you want to play 150 songs or medleys
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https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx

[Sam CA]

[Korghelper]

Interesting. Although, I thought you can cue up another SMF with the dual player and segue from one to another, can't you?

Again, I'm pretty much solely referring to songstyles that are stylistically locked to one song (a different tune to a style based accurately on Pharrell's 'Happy' still sounds like 'Happy'!), I understand completely about using less specific styles to medley tunes. But I have heard a ton of songstyles that are note perfect for ONE song, and for me at least, sound absurd doing any other song with them!

Unlike Roland (who limit you to four Markers per SMF), I thought the PA4 allows far more? This would allow breakdown an SMF into as many segments as you need (and, if you name them, less confusion as to which is which, as a song broken down into style Divisions gives you no visual clues as to which is which, right?).

I guess the ability to return my LH to more traditional playing techniques is what sells the SMF with Marker to me. One handed playing is so limited compared to standard two fisted playing. Certainly, you gain other advantages going with LH chord input, RH solo arranger playing, but 40 years of playing two handed in bands is a hard thing to give up just for mere chord input...

But thanks for the information about alternate ways of using songstyles. Food for thought!

[korg1]

How i see things:

-Yes, a songstyle stylistically locked to a song is meant for use with the specific songstyle,but not always...you can still play another song in the same style if exists....for example,i use a motified factory style on which i used V1 and one intro to write the patterns from Superstition,but i can also use the rest Variations for other songs as well,like ''Last night a Dj saved my life'' ,and so on.

-Whaterver a generic style is,it always misses parts or stylish of the songs you use it for.

- I personally hate it when i have to use the same style more than 2 times per gig. Imagine Beatles to play many of their songs using the same pattern....really boring and annoying.

-Thank God now pa4x can save splitpoint with every STS,and not globally like before...so,now you can just start the songstyle by giving the global Key of the song,but you can have another STS with a very low split point,so you can use 2 hands at anytime to play whatever you want.

This is a gredit for pa4x!!!!!
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https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx

[Korghelper]

Ouch! That sounds like a recipe for disaster! Accidentally play below your bottom split point (as a pianist, it's hard to stay well enough inside even 76 notes when playing piano parts!) and you change the key of your song?

I have enough trouble with 73's, whacking my fingers on the end stop going for lower notes than the keybed has... I'm not sure I'd have the discipline to not reach down into the lowest octave (you need to give it an octave, don't you, to cover all keys?) from time to time.

Is there any way to ensure that it always starts in the same key, and then use transpose if you want to shift it somewhere else? That would at least get those accidents waiting to happen off the keybed!

Again, if you are using a Variation or Intro/Ending for a whole song, you could achieve the same results by chaining several SMF's together, leave a few bars gap between them (for a hand stop if you want to finish) and just put in Markers at each one's beginning as well as main structure points. I've done this before, and it works perfectly.

So many ways to skin a cat!

[korg1]

Sure,that can be done too,but you have to edit each style's elements and change the ''parallel''to ''Fixed''Chord .but still you will need something to trigger the style and fire it up on the right key.

-For me,what works best is to set at STS1 a normal sound with C4 as splitt point ,just to start the song from the right key ,and then use STS2 as a full piano sound or any other sound you like with a split point at C-1 (MINUS 1),not C1.

Of course you can switch between STS1 and STS2 at any time you need.
Either way most of factory's Intros1 are meant to playalong,don't they? you aren't supposed to change chords at least on most of them untill you jumb back to variations1-4
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https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx

[Korghelper]

I thought one of them was play your own chords, one was play along to preset changes?