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NativeAngels
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Joined: 22 Mar 2012
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 Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:59 pm Post subject: How do we use sound fonts ? |
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Just wondering how we use sound fonts with Korg Arrangers ?
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: How do we use sound fonts ? |
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| NativeAngels wrote: | | Just wondering how we use sound fonts with Korg Arrangers ? |
Sf2-soundfonts can be imported (Pa4x/1000/700/600) because they contain the base data (PCM data) also Korg Pa-Keyboards use. Data of imported sf2-files (instruments, presets) can be used by minor editing as Multisamples or Sounds (PCG files). In most cases setting parameters of oszillators are necessary to be finished with built-in-soundeditor to get sounds (pcg) as expected.
To decide whether import of sf2-files makes sense or not, it is possible to play them with free windows-software to listen, like with polyphone (editor), coolsoft (virtualMidiSynth), xmplay (midiplayer), vanBasco (midi&karaokeplayer using coolsoft), dsk sf2 (VST plugin) etc.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=115380&highlight=sf2
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=107704&highlight=sf2
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Asena
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Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 2556
Location: Sweden/Malmoe
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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ON KORG this is a Pain in da as(SORY)
it loads just one layer, And the rest is a horror movie.
if you can,t handle it,
I have GENOS , and In Yem you just drop the file , And resave. some editing of the fx ,and ,it sounds excelent.
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KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10
MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:23 pm Post subject: Import sf2-sounds |
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| Asena wrote: | ON KORG this is a Pain ... it loads just one layer, and the rest is a horror movie. if you can,t handle it,
I have GENOS and in Yem you just drop the file , And resave. some editing of the fx ,and ,it sounds excelent. |
Is no pain, no horror movie.
sf2-banks not only contains base samples in PCM format, but also a describtion of numerous synthesis parameters, not usable for importing to built directly multisamples and pcg-files in Korgs Pa-format.
So it is necessary to know something about the structure of sf2-format and also of a target soundformat, to know why sometimes sf2 files can't be imported automatically.
*
With Korg - as mentioned earlier - thats because due to the deep differences with KORG’s own format - for example, instruments with overlapping zones Korg Pa-series can not handle. But is no horror movie, if always only get one layer - simple have overlooked maybe you tried to import stereosamples, you beforehand easily have to separate in monosamples to be useable etc.
if you can handle it, resave, edit it according to the parameters as described and as necessary for Korgs Pa-format and it sounds excellent.
But it is true that you will be disappointed, not automatically getting finished pcg-files by sf2-import and think, to have answered the question how we use sound fonts with Korg Arrangers.
*
It is the same with YEM - also only has the advantage that you don't have to do the mapping of multisamples in the YEM itself. When importing sf2-data is imperative for further work because no envelopes, filter settings, DSP assignments etc are taken over.
This means in plain - every sf2-file (so with YEM, except specially prepared for this) has to be adapted to the possibilities of the target instruments, otherwise you only have one raw data import - and that rarely really sound.
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- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Korghelper
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 584
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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The problem being, in today's multi-velocity multisample environment, what is exactly the advantage to sf2's if they don't import the velocity zones?
By today's standards, it's a poor sound that doesn't at least do SOME velocity switching...
I'm with Asena here. Until Korg re-write their sf2 import routines, it's a very limited function.
Import of the synthesis parameters, yes, that's a complex issue, probably outside the scope of what's acceptably possible. But if import only gave us a multisample, mapped correctly as to position, velocity range and volume and pan, it ought to be possible to import that multisample to a ROM sound (or well done user sound) that already has the typical envelopes, filters, LFO's, etc., and give us a decent jumping off point for fine tuning.
But no velocity zone mapping is a deal breaker. |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:03 pm Post subject: sf2 - soundfont import |
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| Korghelper wrote: | | .. what is exactly the advantage to sf2's if they don't import the velocity zones? Until Korg re-write their sf2 import routines, it's a very limited function .. |
I recommend reading "SoundFontTechnicalSpecification" (http://www.synthfont.com/sfspec24.pdf), to get some basic infos about that complex issue. You will not find limitations as known from arrangerkeyboards and there very well are velocity and key zone mapping - also overlapping - and ALL that properties you claim for multisamples.
The question of NativeAngels was "how we use soundfonts with Korg Arrangers" - answer is you can import its basic data (PCM-Data), so do YEM.
As Korg mentioned thats because due to the deep differences with KORG’s own format, why some instruments can not be handled like you expect to receive as a decent jumping off point for fine tuning.
I think to get a simple built-import function is better than to be prevented from using the existing samples because without import-function.
So it is yours to criticise the limited function of Korgs import routines - I have no troubles with them, because informed about basics of Korg tools (sample-editor, sound-editor) and also about sf2-specifications, to know how to use sf2-data, how to deal with stereo samples, how to prevent erros with overlappings etc.
If you do not like imported sf2-data but would like to try them nevertheless - that also is possible and also with older Pa-arrangers with sample-tools that can load WAVE (.wav extension). Thats because converting sf2-format to sfz-format is very simple. Converting to sfz you get sf2-separated data (samples and describtion), where samples are converted to loadable wav-data.
But again it is the same as with sf2-data - also is necessary to know formats specifications to learn how finishing multisamples with the corresponding parameter set in sound-edit.
That a sample import would generate finished multisamples and finish sound programs for a completely different structured sound machine - this is not expected.
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- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Asena
Approved Merchant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 2556
Location: Sweden/Malmoe
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Guy,s in the end GENOS or YEM winns this issue.
Becouse of, You just import a SF 2 and it,s almost ready, Just fixing some of the parameters and ad some sounds , Thats ok for me,
in korg you must learn how to fly.
in music bussines time is all you have to save, Ideas is the , but things like this kills you,r inspiration.
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www.globalsound.se
KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10
MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:59 pm Post subject: sf2 - sound import |
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| Asena wrote: | | .. in the end GENOS or YEM winns this issue. Becouse of, You just import a SF 2 and it,s almost ready, Just fixing some of the parameters and ad some sounds , Thats ok for me, in korg you must learn how to fly. in music bussines time is all you have to save, Ideas is the , but things like this kills you,r inspiration. |
Like it is ok for you importing sf2 (Genos, YEM) it also is ok for me to do the same with built-in-import in Korg arrangers without killing inspiration.
Your software application for PC/MAC primary enables users adaptable management of premium and expansion packs, so directly it is not comparable with built-in-import in Pa-Keyboards. The only one feature - if you think is necessary to be compared - is its function for sf2-files importing to packs of Yammies.
To be honest quote their manual: "... soundfont format differs considerably from the format used in this (yem) software. Accordingly, it may not be possible to accurately convert all of the data from sf2 files. If imported data does not produce the expected sounds, use this software’s editing functions to make the necessary adjustments".
So its a fact its import functions are rudimentary and there is no need to judge who win an issue or to start a war again here (as happend with "KORG Manager software Amazing"). Would be better to limit with several expressing of opinions (good and bad) and explaining concerns as recently recommended from karmathanever.
sf2-import functions have restrictions with the parametres on which they have no access - not documented parametres in a sight one can put only with a sampler - or just fixing some of the parameters.
Hence, with an import only one part is taken over - there no sf2-import is an exception and this is confirmed by manufacturers of arranger-keyboards.
Nevertheless, it would be very practical if hardware-soundmachines were playable with each sample-format. But not only manually sampling means a lot of work, also import functions (what we are talking about) requires some investment in time - maybe to prevent from that you could try real conversion software (Chickensys translator, Extremconvert, SampleRobot etc).
As similar mentioned from you some days before: no one says you must use built-in-import of Pa-Kbds - if you don't want it, that is also OK if you are happy with same function of software from other brands.
However, think this is far from the question at the beginning "how we use sound fonts with Korg Arrangers".
Hope answer would help:
- with last generation of arrangers use importfunction with sf2-data
- with older generation of arrangers use load functions with wav-data (after converted sf2 to sfz - like you can do eg with freeware Polyphones function "Export sf2 soundfonts to Format .sfz"). That conversion also for last last generation of arrangers is recommended in case of stereo-samples overlapping zones, as it generates L/R-Wav-files without errors that will occur with sf2-import.
PS: Edition "SampleRobot Korg+Wave" offers sample export functionalities for various Korgs including volca sample, microSAMPLER, Kronos, Pa4X and sample export in Wav format.
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- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Bill1983
Junior Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:25 am Post subject: Re: sf2 - soundfont import |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | Korghelper wrote: | | .. what is exactly the advantage to sf2's if they don't import the velocity zones? Until Korg re-write their sf2 import routines, it's a very limited function .. |
I recommend reading "SoundFontTechnicalSpecification" (http://www.synthfont.com/sfspec24.pdf), to get some basic infos about that complex issue. You will not find limitations as known from arrangerkeyboards and there very well are velocity and key zone mapping - also overlapping - and ALL that properties you claim for multisamples.
The question of NativeAngels was "how we use soundfonts with Korg Arrangers" - answer is you can import its basic data (PCM-Data), so do YEM.
As Korg mentioned thats because due to the deep differences with KORG’s own format, why some instruments can not be handled like you expect to receive as a decent jumping off point for fine tuning.
I think to get a simple built-import function is better than to be prevented from using the existing samples because without import-function.
So it is yours to criticise the limited function of Korgs import routines - I have no troubles with them, because informed about basics of Korg tools (sample-editor, sound-editor) and also about sf2-specifications, to know how to use sf2-data, how to deal with stereo samples, how to prevent erros with overlappings etc.
If you do not like imported sf2-data but would like to try them nevertheless - that also is possible and also with older Pa-arrangers with sample-tools that can load WAVE (.wav extension). Thats because converting sf2-format to sfz-format is very simple. Converting to sfz you get sf2-separated data (samples and describtion), where samples are converted to loadable wav-data.
But again it is the same as with sf2-data - also is necessary to know formats specifications to learn how finishing multisamples with the corresponding parameter set in sound-edit.
That a sample import would generate finished multisamples and finish sound programs for a completely different structured sound machine - this is not expected. |
I agree with everything you've stated. What the music industry needs is the same level cooperation that gave us MIDI in the early 1980's. I was fortunate enough to meet two of the original developers at a NAMM Show in the early 80's. It was a different world that was full of cooperation.
Bar none, no other computer data interface has lasted as long as MIDI and guys, we're just getting started! MIDI was released before IEEE 802.3 (aka Ethernet)
It is so much easier to communicate globally today and yet we can''t seem to get the job done. None of the major plugin companies want a sample standard or a sample converter to work reliably. Most products, Once purchased, are owned by the purchaser. These plugins (aka instruments, effects, etc) can be used for production so what's the big deal? Profits and profits alone. Music cooperation has done so much for the world. From starving children, to aides, to Farm Aide. Profits keep companies alive, gluttony kills the beast. I'm not ready for Music and/or MIDI to eat itself to death. Make your opinion known!
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PA4x, PA500, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 MK2, Sonar Platinum, Ableton Live 10 Standard, NI Komplete12 Ultimate, EWQL Libraries, Nektar Impact LX88, Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 Gen2, Studiologic MP-117 Pedalboard |
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Bill1983
Junior Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:52 am Post subject: Re: sf2 - soundfont import |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | Korghelper wrote: | | .. what is exactly the advantage to sf2's if they don't import the velocity zones? Until Korg re-write their sf2 import routines, it's a very limited function .. |
I recommend reading "SoundFontTechnicalSpecification" (http://www.synthfont.com/sfspec24.pdf), to get some basic infos about that complex issue. You will not find limitations as known from arrangerkeyboards and there very well are velocity and key zone mapping - also overlapping - and ALL that properties you claim for multisamples.
The question of NativeAngels was "how we use soundfonts with Korg Arrangers" - answer is you can import its basic data (PCM-Data), so do YEM.
As Korg mentioned thats because due to the deep differences with KORG’s own format, why some instruments can not be handled like you expect to receive as a decent jumping off point for fine tuning.
I think to get a simple built-import function is better than to be prevented from using the existing samples because without import-function.
So it is yours to criticise the limited function of Korgs import routines - I have no troubles with them, because informed about basics of Korg tools (sample-editor, sound-editor) and also about sf2-specifications, to know how to use sf2-data, how to deal with stereo samples, how to prevent erros with overlappings etc.
If you do not like imported sf2-data but would like to try them nevertheless - that also is possible and also with older Pa-arrangers with sample-tools that can load WAVE (.wav extension). Thats because converting sf2-format to sfz-format is very simple. Converting to sfz you get sf2-separated data (samples and describtion), where samples are converted to loadable wav-data.
But again it is the same as with sf2-data - also is necessary to know formats specifications to learn how finishing multisamples with the corresponding parameter set in sound-edit.
That a sample import would generate finished multisamples and finish sound programs for a completely different structured sound machine - this is not expected. |
I agree with everything you've stated. What the music industry needs is the same level cooperation that gave us MIDI in the early 1980's. I was fortunate enough to meet two of the original developers at a NAMM Show in the early 80's. It was a different world that was full of cooperation.
Bar none, no other computer data interface has lasted as long as MIDI and guys, we're just getting started! MIDI was released before IEEE 802.3 (aka Ethernet)
It is so much easier to communicate globally today and yet we can''t seem to get the job done. None of the major plugin companies want a sample standard or a sample converter to work reliably. Most products, Once purchased, are owned by the purchaser. These plugins (aka instruments, effects, etc) can be used for production so what's the big deal? Profits and profits alone. Music cooperation has done so much for the world. From starving children, to aides, to Farm Aide. Profits keep companies alive, gluttony kills the beast. I'm not ready for Music and/or MIDI to eat itself to death. Make your opinion known!
_________________
PA4x, PA500, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 MK2, Sonar Platinum, Ableton Live 10 Standard, NI Komplete12 Ultimate, EWQL Libraries, Nektar Impact LX88, Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 Gen2, Studiologic MP-117 Pedalboard |
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Aripearlmusic
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Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 351
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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There are 2 kinds of SF2 files. 1 is an SF2 instrument and 1 is the SF2 Bank file. The bank file can load hundreds of multisamples in one shot while the instrument file will only be able to load more than 1 if the sf2 global parameters layer is removed. I use SF2 to batch load thousands of samples and their multisample settings like key assigning, level, and microtuning in one shot.
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Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:21 pm Post subject: import sf2 |
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Sf2 always has the same structure, but depending on the software (Korg Import, Vienna, Polyfone, etc.) different terms are used for its elements.
An sf2 instrument consists of one or more samples.
An sf2 preset consists of one or more sf2 instruments.
An sf2 bank consists of one or more sf2 presets.
Global parameters in sf2 instruments apply to all samples of the instrument,
Global parameters in SF2 presets apply to all instruments in a preset.
With Korgs term if you choose "import multisample" that is importing an sf2-instrument, if you choose "import bank" that is importing an sf2-preset (with all its instruments).
In one go there is no possibility to choose an Korg-import of a complete sf2-bank with all its sf2-presets in sf2-files.
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- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Aripearlmusic
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Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 351
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah there is way. Sound mode-record-pull down menu from the top right- choose Import- select the SF2 Bank and choose Complete Bank. Thats how you can load 100s of multisamples in one shot
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Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en |
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Asena
Approved Merchant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 2556
Location: Sweden/Malmoe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Aripearlmusic wrote: | | Yeah there is way. Sound mode-record-pull down menu from the top right- choose Import- select the SF2 Bank and choose Complete Bank. Thats how you can load 100s of multisamples in one shot |
Thats not the issue here, If you load any SF2 Yes its importing all in once, but Not the velo layers, thats something the user must recreate, And thats the problem, If you use only 1 Layer its ok, If you like to have more realistic sounds , You will need at least 4/5 layers, And thats not anything PA models can do.
Kronos can handle it, Nautilius can handle it etc, NOT PA models.
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www.globalsound.se
KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10
MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
LOTS OF SAMPLE SOUNDS!
KorgPaManager V 5 |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Has anyone tried using Chicken Systems software (either Translator or Korg Creator) to properly get soundfonts into their Korg arranger? |
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