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Which has the better FM engine -- Kronos or Montage/MODX ?
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Which FM engine is better: Kronos or Montage/MODX?
Kronos MOD-7 by a mile
46%
 46%  [ 13 ]
MOD-7 is a little better
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
MOD-7 and FM-X are about the same
7%
 7%  [ 2 ]
FM-X is slightly better
14%
 14%  [ 4 ]
Montage/MODX wins because it is Yamaha
10%
 10%  [ 3 ]
I have another opinion
17%
 17%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 28

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rbox
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Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mod-7 is functionwise a good FM tool easy to use but soundwise too clean and thin sounding compare to the other Plugins AL1 and Str-1 i was little bit dissapointed about , this is also the reason why do you find not any interesting Sound over the Internet..the question goes to Korg and they Programmers and theyre outdated / conserative Soundphilosophie.

The main Problem from Mod7 is:

- the basic Soundcharacter of the Operators are too thin and bland sounding , like a perfect mathematic Algorithm , and there is no parameter to fatten up the Operator Sound before the Filter.

- the Filters are to clean/dry sounding , missing distinct Color and Character. Filter Saturation is fixed you cannot change it like on Virus TI.

- the Waveshaper are sounds too harsh and distorted very fast, the Sweepspot is too small to become a good sounding result with it.

- the Envelopes are not fast enough like on Yamaha SY99

- the Mod7 engine render the Sound at a higher resolution than older FM Synths so the old gritty Soundcharacter from older DA Converters / FM Algos is gone and missing here too.

- most Mod7 Sounds are to soft sounding, it is very hard to create a hard sou ding , cut in the Mix FM sound with it. Compare DX7/ SY99 /FM8 with Mod7 and you can here the difference.

-the Drive/Lowboost Section from AL1 is missing here. It would be nice to put the Section between the Operators and Filters.

-no Updates and Patches from Korg to solve the Problems. No further development compare to NI products.

To sum:

Mod7 cannot replace Yamahas DX7 , SY99, Fs1R because the most Thing is missing here , SOUND. It doesent sound full and warm and direct like Yamaha's classic Synths from yesterday Times. And compare to NI FM8 , is Mod7 pretty basic stuff. FM8 has far more complex Envelopes and a Morph funktion to morph between different Algorithmsettings. The result is flatout awesome , not these boring Epiano/Bell Sounds.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3rYC2PqVY
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Purgatory
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Joined: 06 Dec 2018
Posts: 71
Location: Leeds, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote








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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1042
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rbox wrote:
mod-7 is functionwise a good FM tool easy to use but soundwise too clean and thin sounding compare to the other Plugins AL1 and Str-1 i was little bit dissapointed about , this is also the reason why do you find not any interesting Sound over the Internet..the question goes to Korg and they Programmers and theyre outdated / conserative Soundphilosophie.

The main Problem from Mod7 is:

- the basic Soundcharacter of the Operators are too thin and bland sounding , like a perfect mathematic Algorithm , and there is no parameter to fatten up the Operator Sound before the Filter.

Before the filter, there are several ways to fatten up the sound that you missed:

- Polyphonic Unison with Thickness and Stereo Spread,
- OSC Main page Analog and Noise Saturation
- 4-velocity PCM samples as FM modulators or attack transients

For extra presence, you should set Polyphonic Unison to 3 voices and 005 detune and 100 Stereo Spread. Set TFX1 to Stereo Multiband Compressor (Live Produced) and TFX2 to Stereo Master Limiter (Mix MaxMax!)


- the Filters are to clean/dry sounding , missing distinct Color and Character. Filter Saturation is fixed you cannot change it like on Virus TI.

Each Program contains 2 engines. If you want filter character, route the MOD7 into the MS20 filter, or into the AL-1 Multi-filter with dual crossfade of 22 modes, then parallel or serial into a 2nd filter. Then there's also the FX multi-mode filter, random filter, and the wah filter.

- the Waveshaper are sounds too harsh and distorted very fast, the Sweepspot is too small to become a good sounding result with it.

Just yesterday I discovered the uses of the waveshaper by following the tutorials in the Parameter Guide (MOD-7 chapter, Waveshaping section, pp 354-355).

The Wavehaper does get harsh fast if you're not careful. I disagree that the sweet spot is too small, I created a lot of interesting timbres going through all 100 waves in the table. Try the "Creating evolving timbres" tutorial. To make surfing through the wave tables easy from the drop down menu, you can touch the upper left cornersafety pin icon to keep the window open.

Pickup2, Add 12345, Add 1plus4, Sine 2Octave, TX Wave 3, Mixture 2, Fuzzy, 2 Cycle, Frequency7, Resonant2, Geographic, and Super Resonant were my favorites.


- the Envelopes are not fast enough like on Yamaha SY99

I don't have an SY99 to compare, but the envelopes seem plenty fast to me. They're the same snappiness as my MODX7.

- the Mod7 engine render the Sound at a higher resolution than older FM Synths so the old gritty Soundcharacter from older DA Converters / FM Algos is gone and missing here too.

You overlooked the Stereo Decimator, which has adjustable bit rate from 1 to 24 bits, and sample rate from 1 to 48kHz. Try the Vintage 2 FX preset.

Also, the Tube Preamp Modeler has a pre and post section, each with HPF/LPF, Bias, Saturation, and up to 24dB gain. Check out the E. Gtr Big Body FX preset. I also like to use the Piano Body/Damper to add variable character and a hollow body ambience


- most Mod7 Sounds are to soft sounding, it is very hard to create a hard sou ding , cut in the Mix FM sound with it. Compare DX7/ SY99 /FM8 with Mod7 and you can here the difference.

It's all in the programming, not the presets. You're in luck. Only 2 days ago I created a very cutting, gnarly sound and posted a how-to on GearSlutz forum. It uses wavesequencing for the base sound, but the rest of the recipe can be applied equally well to MOD-7 or any Kronos sound.

-the Drive/Lowboost Section from AL1 is missing here. It would be nice to put the Section between the Operators and Filters.

Again, you overlooked routing between engines.
Use the Stereo Dyna Compressor, Bass Body Builder FX preset. You also have Tube Bass Amp + Cab FX.


-no Updates and Patches from Korg to solve the Problems. No further development compare to NI products.

To sum:

Mod7 cannot replace Yamahas DX7 , SY99, Fs1R because the most Thing is missing here , SOUND. It doesent sound full and warm and direct like Yamaha's classic Synths from yesterday Times. And compare to NI FM8 , is Mod7 pretty basic stuff. FM8 has far more complex Envelopes and a Morph funktion to morph between different Algorithmsettings. The result is flatout awesome , not these boring Epiano/Bell Sounds.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3rYC2PqVY



Here are some good non-Epiano MOD7 programs. Better even when you try out various KARMA scenes programmed for them:

Bright Ultrawide Pad
Transformer Lead
Windsong
All That Glitters
Bell Transforms
When a Robot Dreams
Carillon Variations
Plaintive Choir
D'Bass (disengage SW1, try all KARMA scenes)
Pfat Boy KARMA Scene 4
L8-Lee Bass (very weak until you apply my Presence tips, then try KARMA and Vector Joystick)
Switched on Bass (Presence tips, KARMA, VJS)
Disko Hammer Bass
Moonlight Parade
Starlight Parade
Synced in Motion
Tight Squeeze
Fantasy Clubland
Busy Body
Follow the Suspect
Dancing Waveshapes
Low Flying Objects
Rain From Heaven
Solar Winds
Beyond the Clouds
Thin Fluids
Wave Rotation
Lost in an Ion Storm
Triangle Pop JS
Pure Nitro Rock Star
MOD7 Orchestra
Harmonic Heights
Cathedral of the New Age
Pointed Anthem (KARMA Scene 4)
Frantic Opera Lead (multiple KARMA scenes)
FeedbackNois HP Synth (KARMA Scene 6 + VJS)

and many more in bank User-F (OG Kronos)
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1042
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos tends to have a high fidelity sound. But it can get in your face too. These are my current go-to tips to beefen things up (besides EQ of course).

Polyphonic Unison set to 3 voices, detune 005, thickness 9, stereo spread 100

Some FX presets:
Stereo Dyna Compressor (Bass Body Builder)
Tube Preamp Modeler: E. Gtr Big Body
Stereo Decimator: Vintage 2
Stereo Exciter/Enhancer: Dark Enhancer
Piano Body/Damper: Grand Piano 1, customized
Stereo Mastering Limiter: Mix MaxMax!

Keep in mind that there are 4 different places to EQ:
1) in the HD1 or EXI engine
2) in the FX section
3) in the Combi
4) in Set List mode
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1042
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an awesome demo of original programs entirely made of the MOD7 only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUfL34_Gvs


Purgatory, how do you post a youtube video so that it shows the video here instead of a link? I'm tired and forgot how.
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Purgatory
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Joined: 06 Dec 2018
Posts: 71
Location: Leeds, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
Here's an awesome demo of original programs entirely made of the MOD7 only.





Purgatory, how do you post a youtube video so that it shows the video here instead of a link? I'm tired and forgot how.
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Liviou2004
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Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 794
Location: Nemours - France

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
In fact, if you set the PCM operator to sine wave, then a single instance of a MOD-7 engine has 7 useful operators (exclude the noise operator).


Thank you, psionic, for opening this thread.

What you say is not completely true : PCM, Audio In and Noise blocks, are OUTPUT only. So they can't be considered as true full Operators. (They can't be used as carrier).

I am unable to give a real opinion about your poll, because I don't own a MOD-X. However I'm knowing FM synthesis quite well, and I totally agree with the fact that increasing the nombers of operators don't make the sound quality.

Three major points must be counted for Kronos, though :

1) The total modularity and so, versatily of MOD-7
2) The huge amount and versatility of modulation sources (6 AMS Mixers for example !)
3) One point nobody mentionned in that thread : the Waveshaping
_________________
Kronos 2 73, Moog Grandmother, Studiologic Sledge 2, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha P90 / Electro Harmonix Vocoder V256, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro / Soundcraft Mixer EFX12, JBL LSR308, Behringer FX2000 3D
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
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Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
psionic311 wrote:
In fact, if you set the PCM operator to sine wave, then a single instance of a MOD-7 engine has 7 useful operators (exclude the noise operator).


Thank you, psionic, for opening this thread.

What you say is not completely true : PCM, Audio In and Noise blocks, are OUTPUT only. So they can't be considered as true full Operators. (They can't be used as carrier).

Audio IN is the key to creating stacks larger than 6. For example, both DX7 and MOD7 can create 6 => 5 => 4 => 3 => 2 => 1, where the only carrier is 1.

But using EXI1 audio Out ==> EXI2 audio IN, you can chain 6 => 5 => 4 => 3 => 2 => 1 (audio Out) to (EXI2 audio IN) =>
6 => 5 => 4 => 3 => 2 => 1.

In other words, only MOD7 can make an FM operator stack of 12, or more!



I am unable to give a real opinion about your poll, because I don't own a MOD-X. However I'm knowing FM synthesis quite well, and I totally agree with the fact that increasing the nombers of operators don't make the sound quality.

Three major points must be counted for Kronos, though :

1) The total modularity and so, versatily of MOD-7
2) The huge amount and versatility of modulation sources (6 AMS Mixers for example !)
3) One point nobody mentionned in that thread : the Waveshaping


Yes, waveshaping is a powerful block in the engine. It is capable of a good variety of interesting timbres. See my replies above to robx post regarding waveshaping. I mention the Parameter Guide tutorial and my favorite tables.
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Liviou2004
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Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 794
Location: Nemours - France

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
Liviou2004 wrote:
psionic311 wrote:
In fact, if you set the PCM operator to sine wave, then a single instance of a MOD-7 engine has 7 useful operators (exclude the noise operator).


Thank you, psionic, for opening this thread.

What you say is not completely true : PCM, Audio In and Noise blocks, are OUTPUT only. So they can't be considered as true full Operators. (They can't be used as carrier).

Audio IN is the key to creating stacks larger than 6. For example, both DX7 and MOD7 can create 6 => 5 => 4 => 3 => 2 => 1, where the only carrier is 1.

But using EXI1 audio Out ==> EXI2 audio IN, you can chain 6 => 5 => 4 => 3 => 2 => 1 (audio Out) to (EXI2 audio IN) =>
6 => 5 => 4 => 3 => 2 => 1.

In other words, only MOD7 can make an FM operator stack of 12, or more!



I am unable to give a real opinion about your poll, because I don't own a MOD-X. However I'm knowing FM synthesis quite well, and I totally agree with the fact that increasing the nombers of operators don't make the sound quality.

Three major points must be counted for Kronos, though :

1) The total modularity and so, versatily of MOD-7
2) The huge amount and versatility of modulation sources (6 AMS Mixers for example !)
3) One point nobody mentionned in that thread : the Waveshaping


Yes, waveshaping is a powerful block in the engine. It is capable of a good variety of interesting timbres. See my replies above to robx post regarding waveshaping. I mention the Parameter Guide tutorial and my favorite tables.


Oh, yes, I didn't even realize you've answered in bold police inside the quote itself !

I don't understand how you can route EXi 1 ouput into Exi 2 Audio input : because inside a PRG, it's impossible to route the two Exi separately. So in Exi Audio Input Source there is not Exi1 ou Exi2 option. You can only choose "PRG" in order to create a feedback loop. (Parameter Guide, Page 181).
So, I would be very interesting to know how you can do that. Thanks a lot.

About the Wavesshaping, you're right ! You've mentionned it, sorry.
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Kronos 2 73, Moog Grandmother, Studiologic Sledge 2, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha P90 / Electro Harmonix Vocoder V256, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro / Soundcraft Mixer EFX12, JBL LSR308, Behringer FX2000 3D
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
I don't understand how you can route EXi 1 ouput into Exi 2 Audio input : because inside a PRG, it's impossible to route the two Exi separately. So in Exi Audio Input Source there is not Exi1 ou Exi2 option. You can only choose "PRG" in order to create a feedback loop. (Parameter Guide, Page 181).
So, I would be very interesting to know how you can do that. Thanks a lot.


Sorry, I got ahead of myself when thinking of the possibilities on how to route sound between engines. You do need a physical cable from Output to Audio Input to use the AL1 filter with another engine.

Here's how I sent EXI1 MOD7 engine to EXI2 AL1 filter:

Connect a cable from Output 1 to Audio Input 1.

On the AL1 Mixer page, change the Sub Osc / Audio IN mode to Audio In.

Then go to Common/Basic/EXI Audio Input, and change EXI1 to Output 1.
Then go to Common/IFX/Routing, and change Bus Select to Output 1.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry psionic, but that's not so clear for me. I've followed your tip and it didn't work. Here are the reasons :

psionic311 wrote:
Then go to Common/IFX/Routing, and change Bus Select to Output 1.

As I told before, in Prog Mode (Common/IFX/Routing); you can't separate EXi 1 and EXi 2 signals. This parameter is called "EXi1 & 2". So, the two Exi's are treated together.
If we do what you say here, we can't hear anything, because there is no signal going to L/R bus !
In Prog Mode, its impossible to treat Exi signals each on its side. The only place where we can separate the signals is on "Exi MFX Send" area. A french guy, Coyote14, did a tuto on this topic : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70_74JN-b6M. This tuto is in french, but I guess it's possible to follow, thanks to the graphics. Coyote14 says he got the idea on KarmaLab Forum. Perhaps you can get it there in english. The downside of this trick, is that we can't use IFX anymore.

That's the reason why I've created a tip using external plug wires and inside Combi : http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=111590&highlight=
In Combi mode, it works well because each track can be routed separately which is note the case in Prog Mode.

-----------------------

All in all, we've moved away from our initial topic (MOD-7 <-> ModX comparison) !! Sorry ! But this is interesting.
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Kronos 2 73, Moog Grandmother, Studiologic Sledge 2, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha P90 / Electro Harmonix Vocoder V256, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro / Soundcraft Mixer EFX12, JBL LSR308, Behringer FX2000 3D
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I can't seem to recreate the connection from MOD7 to AL1 audio input either. A few days ago I thought I had it? I made a wub wub LFO filter and routed a metallic FM sound into it, and had it playing just through the left out. Maybe I heard some MFX1 bleed, who knows.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. No need to route MOD7 into AL1 because the Multi Filter is also available in MOD7.

It's missing the Amp Drive and Low boost, but there are still other options for distortion. The Tube Preamp modeller has saturation and bias, the Talking Modulator is fun, and there's always the guitar and bass amp and cab sims.
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can get some gnarly industrial type stuff by using the Drum track as an FM source. All you have to do is route the drums to REC 1/2 (for stereo), and set the Audio IN to REC 1/2. After that just patch the Audio IN output to any of the Inputs on the OSCs.

Drum Track tab
- choose your Drum Pattern, set Shift to -12
- under Bus section, turn Bus OFF and set REC to 1/2

EXi Audio Input tab (left of Drum Track tab)
- set Input Source to REC 1/2

Patch Panel
- touch and drag from Audio IN (bottom left corner) to your OSC of choice

Enjoy!
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it's a good idea ! That concerns the Drums sounds only but it's a good way to experiment.
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
Yes, it's a good idea ! That concerns the Drums sounds only but it's a good way to experiment.


Did you know you can substitute the Drums for another instrument?
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