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More volume needed from built-in speakers

 
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Randelph
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Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:55 am    Post subject: More volume needed from built-in speakers Reply with quote

I use the built-in speakers in conjunction with a QSC K10. I basically turn the volume knob up all the way on the keyboard and then adjust the volume on the K10 to match it, which sits right next to the keyboard facing me.

I used to have a Casio MZ-X500, and while I prefer the sound of the speakers of the PA 1000, apparently the 1000 doesn't go as loud. I remember being very satisfied with the combo of the built-in speakers and the K10 together.

Not as much with the PA 1000. The built-in speakers just don't get loud enough, and to be heard in the jam circle I play in I end up cranking the K10 speaker, and can't really hear the built-in speakers, which have such a great stereo sound.

So...
1. How robust are the built-in speakers on the PA 1000? In my experience with most speakers, it's usually the woofer that gets blown from too much bass.
2. Has anyone replaced speakers on their 700/1000 or had issues?
3. How can I get more overall volume from the built-in speakers?

As a side note, I really like using a sweep pedal to control volume, but it seems like I'm not getting quite as much volume with the pedal down all the way as simply having the sweep pedal not plugged in. This, combined with an overall lower volume from the speakers than I'd like, makes it hard to be heard.

Thanks,
Randy
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replacing the speakers will do nothing it is a major rebuild of the internal amp that is required to give more volume but even then that could destroy the tone of the unit.

I presume that the K10 is loud enough overall for your jamming which would indicate that a pair of powered Monitors specifically for you would be the way to go.

You could always save a few bucks and get the other guys to turn down the volume you use when jamming.
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biggles wrote:
Replacing the speakers will do nothing it is a major rebuild of the internal amp that is required to give more volume but even then that could destroy the tone of the unit.

I presume that the K10 is loud enough overall for your jamming which would indicate that a pair of powered Monitors specifically for you would be the way to go.

You could always save a few bucks and get the other guys to turn down the volume you use when jamming.

Biggles,
I wasn't talking about upgrading the speakers and amp, I think they've done a great job with it, there's just not enough volume. So as I look for ways to boost the EQ and compression to get more volume, I'm wondering how hard it is to replace a blown speaker. And what tricks people have used to coax more volume out of the existing amp/speakers.

Yes, the K10 is plenty loud, it's just that the sound from the built-in speakers is such wonderful stereo that I'd love to be able to continue hearing it even when things get a bit louder in the jam.

Thanks,
Randy
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gwc uk
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pa700 /Pa1000 inbuilt speakers are designed for domestic monitoring only and not provided for very loud jam playing.
Overdrive these inbuilt speakers is asking for some expensive repair bills and not replaced under warranty.
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who uses their PA700 every day in public performance at nursing homes and small band things, I can say a few things about the PA700 speaker system:

1. For performances in smaller rooms, the in-built system will likely be loud enugh. I normally run mine at around a 50% level with a custom Master EQ and Limiter setting to make it a bit more punchy. It works well and with the EQ, I made a few adjustments to make the sound a bit brighter so it fills the room with, hopefully, a bit less dullness (this is because the speakers are top facing and not audience facing):

Low EQ : +1.5 db
Low-Mid EQ : 0.0 db
Mid-High EQ : +2.0 db
High EQ : +3.0 db

I set the Limiter to be at around +5 db for the Gain adjust because I set the Limiter to limit the lower frequencies because of the single speaker per side design on the PA700. On the G2 note (or chords that are in G), I notice a bit of 'woofing' on the G2 note when at higher volumes. This is due to the size of the speaker and the fact that it is a full range speaker (and not the 2-way setup of the PA1000). Running the Limiter lessens the 'woofing' on those chords that would cause woofer slap...

If you are using the PA700/1000 as a monitor while connecting to an external PA system, the internal amp volume for monitoring from the PA700/1000 will likely not be enough. The ambient sound coming from your PA will likely be louder than the internal system can handle. I run into it all the time and compensate accordingly.

I also watch the speaker flex when I am playing at louder volumes so I could adjust my EQ/Limiter settings to lessen the taxing of the internal system. The nice thing about Korg is that their acoustic sounds are good enough that they can cause a problem with overloading the sound system. That is actually a compliment, in many ways...

If you are using the PA700/1000 internal system as a monitor, then you may need to switch to headphones/IEMs, or go with an external amp system for your monitors. Most powered speakers these days offer a line out of some sort and you can daisy chain them accordingly. This is what I do for outdoor gigs when I need to get loud on the PA

I have a paid of Harbinger M350 2.1 systems that run about 350 watts RMS. I run each one in mono and then, from the PA700, run my left output to one and my right output to the other. I get a BIG sound for the audience.

I also have a pair of Rockville RPG8 powered speakers that I can use as monitors. I plug my PA700 into each one of those (using the left output to one speaker, right output to the other speaker), and then with the line outs on each of those, go into the respective M350 for the audience. The RPG 8 speakers are 100 watts each so my monitor system is now 200 watts in stereo. I turn off the internal speakers on my PA700 and let everything happen from there Smile It works well. In fact, I will be doing that this weekend at an outdoor gig in a park. Like last year (I have done this particular event for about 5 years), I will be running total PA power at around 25% and it fills the park nicely.

I hope this helps a bit...

Grace,
Harry
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Randelph
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Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 439
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gwc uk wrote:
The Pa700 /Pa1000 inbuilt speakers are designed for domestic monitoring only and not provided for very loud jam playing.
Overdrive these inbuilt speakers is asking for some expensive repair bills and not replaced under warranty.


Yes, to be expected, however speaker replacement is one of the easiest jobs ever, and I wouldn't expect the speaker itself would be very expensive. I know I'm playing with fire, which is why I'm asking questions, and REALLY don't want to blow a speaker, just need to know if I've got wiggle room.
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Last edited by Randelph on Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Randelph
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Joined: 18 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Musicwithharry wrote:
As someone who uses their PA700 every day in public performance at nursing homes and small band things, I can say a few things about the PA700 speaker system:

1. For performances in smaller rooms, the in-built system will likely be loud enugh. I normally run mine at around a 50% level with a custom Master EQ and Limiter setting to make it a bit more punchy. It works well and with the EQ, I made a few adjustments to make the sound a bit brighter so it fills the room with, hopefully, a bit less dullness (this is because the speakers are top facing and not audience facing):

Low EQ : +1.5 db
Low-Mid EQ : 0.0 db
Mid-High EQ : +2.0 db
High EQ : +3.0 db

I set the Limiter to be at around +5 db for the Gain adjust because I set the Limiter to limit the lower frequencies because of the single speaker per side design on the PA700. On the G2 note (or chords that are in G), I notice a bit of 'woofing' on the G2 note when at higher volumes. This is due to the size of the speaker and the fact that it is a full range speaker (and not the 2-way setup of the PA1000). Running the Limiter lessens the 'woofing' on those chords that would cause woofer slap...

If you are using the PA700/1000 as a monitor while connecting to an external PA system, the internal amp volume for monitoring from the PA700/1000 will likely not be enough. The ambient sound coming from your PA will likely be louder than the internal system can handle. I run into it all the time and compensate accordingly.

I also watch the speaker flex when I am playing at louder volumes so I could adjust my EQ/Limiter settings to lessen the taxing of the internal system. The nice thing about Korg is that their acoustic sounds are good enough that they can cause a problem with overloading the sound system. That is actually a compliment, in many ways...

If you are using the PA700/1000 internal system as a monitor, then you may need to switch to headphones/IEMs, or go with an external amp system for your monitors. Most powered speakers these days offer a line out of some sort and you can daisy chain them accordingly. This is what I do for outdoor gigs when I need to get loud on the PA

I have a paid of Harbinger M350 2.1 systems that run about 350 watts RMS. I run each one in mono and then, from the PA700, run my left output to one and my right output to the other. I get a BIG sound for the audience.

I also have a pair of Rockville RPG8 powered speakers that I can use as monitors. I plug my PA700 into each one of those (using the left output to one speaker, right output to the other speaker), and then with the line outs on each of those, go into the respective M350 for the audience. The RPG 8 speakers are 100 watts each so my monitor system is now 200 watts in stereo. I turn off the internal speakers on my PA700 and let everything happen from there Smile It works well. In fact, I will be doing that this weekend at an outdoor gig in a park. Like last year (I have done this particular event for about 5 years), I will be running total PA power at around 25% and it fills the park nicely.

I hope this helps a bit...

Grace,
Harry

Thank you Harry!

Sounds like some pretty mild adjustments. Looks like with either or both sound systems you're running stereo, which is great.

I play alot using battery power and will probably get a Bose S1 Pro to replace the K10. The Bose speaker has its own lithium battery, and with a small lithium battery for the Korg I'll have minimal footprint, a decently large sound and a minimal amount of setup/schleepage to do. As it is now I bring a marine deep cycle battery with 80 amp hours of juice, its around 70 pounds! Plus the inverter. The lithium battery with built-in inverter will probably weight about 5 pounds and be able to fit in my backpack.

Another supplemental speaker I've been using at home is the Klipsch KMC 3. It's a stereo boombox that puts alot of boom in the box. It's got two 2" drivers for the stereo, and a 5 1/4" woofer, which is huge for a battery powered box. It's bi-amped and puts out a total 65 watts RMS. It puts out some serious sound and bass for its size, and sounds hi-fi to me. At home I put it dead center right behind the Korg, so I get a supplemental stereo sound coming at me.

Have to say, even without getting the full stereo sound at the jam yesterday, 'cause much of the sound was coming from the K10; even so, it still sounded really good to me. Overall the PA 1000 has been a HUGE upgrade compared to the Casio MZ-X500 in almost every way.
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Musicwithharry
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 222
Location: Anamosa, IA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randelph wrote:
Musicwithharry wrote:
As someone who uses their PA700 every day in public performance at nursing homes and small band things, I can say a few things about the PA700 speaker system:

1. For performances in smaller rooms, the in-built system will likely be loud enugh. I normally run mine at around a 50% level with a custom Master EQ and Limiter setting to make it a bit more punchy. It works well and with the EQ, I made a few adjustments to make the sound a bit brighter so it fills the room with, hopefully, a bit less dullness (this is because the speakers are top facing and not audience facing):

Low EQ : +1.5 db
Low-Mid EQ : 0.0 db
Mid-High EQ : +2.0 db
High EQ : +3.0 db

I set the Limiter to be at around +5 db for the Gain adjust because I set the Limiter to limit the lower frequencies because of the single speaker per side design on the PA700. On the G2 note (or chords that are in G), I notice a bit of 'woofing' on the G2 note when at higher volumes. This is due to the size of the speaker and the fact that it is a full range speaker (and not the 2-way setup of the PA1000). Running the Limiter lessens the 'woofing' on those chords that would cause woofer slap...

If you are using the PA700/1000 as a monitor while connecting to an external PA system, the internal amp volume for monitoring from the PA700/1000 will likely not be enough. The ambient sound coming from your PA will likely be louder than the internal system can handle. I run into it all the time and compensate accordingly.

I also watch the speaker flex when I am playing at louder volumes so I could adjust my EQ/Limiter settings to lessen the taxing of the internal system. The nice thing about Korg is that their acoustic sounds are good enough that they can cause a problem with overloading the sound system. That is actually a compliment, in many ways...

If you are using the PA700/1000 internal system as a monitor, then you may need to switch to headphones/IEMs, or go with an external amp system for your monitors. Most powered speakers these days offer a line out of some sort and you can daisy chain them accordingly. This is what I do for outdoor gigs when I need to get loud on the PA

I have a paid of Harbinger M350 2.1 systems that run about 350 watts RMS. I run each one in mono and then, from the PA700, run my left output to one and my right output to the other. I get a BIG sound for the audience.

I also have a pair of Rockville RPG8 powered speakers that I can use as monitors. I plug my PA700 into each one of those (using the left output to one speaker, right output to the other speaker), and then with the line outs on each of those, go into the respective M350 for the audience. The RPG 8 speakers are 100 watts each so my monitor system is now 200 watts in stereo. I turn off the internal speakers on my PA700 and let everything happen from there Smile It works well. In fact, I will be doing that this weekend at an outdoor gig in a park. Like last year (I have done this particular event for about 5 years), I will be running total PA power at around 25% and it fills the park nicely.

I hope this helps a bit...

Grace,
Harry

Thank you Harry!

Sounds like some pretty mild adjustments. Looks like with either or both sound systems you're running stereo, which is great.

I play alot using battery power and will probably get a Bose S1 Pro to replace the K10. The Bose speaker has its own lithium battery, and with a small lithium battery for the Korg I'll have minimal footprint, a decently large sound and a minimal amount of setup/schleepage to do. As it is now I bring a marine deep cycle battery with 80 amp hours of juice, its around 70 pounds! Plus the inverter. The lithium battery with built-in inverter will probably weight about 5 pounds and be able to fit in my backpack.

Another supplemental speaker I've been using at home is the Klipsch KMC 3. It's a stereo boombox that puts alot of boom in the box. It's got two 2" drivers for the stereo, and a 5 1/4" woofer, which is huge for a battery powered box. It's bi-amped and puts out a total 65 watts RMS. It puts out some serious sound and bass for its size, and sounds hi-fi to me. At home I put it dead center right behind the Korg, so I get a supplemental stereo sound coming at me.

Have to say, even without getting the full stereo sound at the jam yesterday, 'cause much of the sound was coming from the K10; even so, it still sounded really good to me. Overall the PA 1000 has been a HUGE upgrade compared to the Casio MZ-X500 in almost every way.


The PA700 will sound good, even in mono, but 'mono' is a 4 letter word to me Smile I prefer stereo, especially because of all of the panning and depth of the sound that stereo makes Smile

Many people like the Bose system. I think that I would use one myself, if I did not already have a sound system. I actually have three different systems that I can use in order to project more of my sound.

With the bass ports on the back of the PA700/1000, the bass is pretty good. There are shows that I do where I actually have to turn down the bass in the EQ a bit in order make it sound good out front.

I like the idea that Casio has with their ports facing the audience. They really look like they would really project the sound. At first, I thought that they actually had another pair of speakers facing the audience but upon further examination, it just looks like a bigger port that gets more sound out. The ports on the Korg PA700/1000 are really for extending the bass frequencies and not much of the higher end frequencies.

The key is to limit the excursion of the speakers in either model of PA from Korg. WIth limiting the bass excursion, you can get louder.

I looked at my settings today before playing and the limiter is set to the following:

Ratio : 3.0 db
Threshold : - 18 db
Attack : Fast (I believe that this would be 0 in a numerical representation)
Release : Slow (I believe this is a higher number in a numerical representation - it may be 99 or 100 - whatever the highest number can be)
Gain Adjust : +5db

When I am playing through a PA and using external monitors, or am recording stuff from the PA700, I have another Limiter/EQ setting I use to maximize the sound of the PA700 with little coloration so it does not sound compressed (from the limiter).


I hope that this further helps Smile

Grace,
Harry
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Randelph
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Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 439
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry,
Using the limiter was an odd experience. None of the volume adjustments that i made with the main volume control or balance knob changed the level that you see on the In meter of the Global limiter page. So how do you increase or decrease that level you see?

As it was, the patches I tried with the limiter were pretty far down on the meter, about -20. I had to set the threshold to -20 to even get the gain reduction meter to register at all. And of course the Gain adjust is POST the gain reduction, so you can easily drive the meters of the Output into the red. Looks like I'll be consulting the meters of the Limiter if I hear any distortion.

Looks like the presets have only a few defaults, Brick Wall, Soft Mastering, and Hard Mastering.

I don't understand what they're thinking. In all cases, trying it out with various loud Styles playing, it shows none of this playing is triggering any gain reduction. I'm thinking that they left headroom for super duper loud Songs/Styles, but I can't imagine them being that much louder. So the only way to have the safety of having a limiter working for you, is to set the threshold super low like the -20 I talked about above.

Because that Gain Adjust value can really pump up the overall volume, all the way to distortion, even if you don't have any limiter action being triggered.
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Musicwithharry
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randelph wrote:
Harry,
Using the limiter was an odd experience. None of the volume adjustments that i made with the main volume control or balance knob changed the level that you see on the In meter of the Global limiter page. So how do you increase or decrease that level you see?

As it was, the patches I tried with the limiter were pretty far down on the meter, about -20. I had to set the threshold to -20 to even get the gain reduction meter to register at all. And of course the Gain adjust is POST the gain reduction, so you can easily drive the meters of the Output into the red. Looks like I'll be consulting the meters of the Limiter if I hear any distortion.

Looks like the presets have only a few defaults, Brick Wall, Soft Mastering, and Hard Mastering.

I don't understand what they're thinking. In all cases, trying it out with various loud Styles playing, it shows none of this playing is triggering any gain reduction. I'm thinking that they left headroom for super duper loud Songs/Styles, but I can't imagine them being that much louder. So the only way to have the safety of having a limiter working for you, is to set the threshold super low like the -20 I talked about above.

Because that Gain Adjust value can really pump up the overall volume, all the way to distortion, even if you don't have any limiter action being triggered.


I consulted the manual for the PA700 (Page 488). What I understand the Limiter doing is looking at the signal before it goes to the master volume knob and will adjust from there, based on the settings that the Limiter has.

I notice the Limiter working A LOT more when I am playing along with a sequence in the sequencer more than anything. I do notice it when playing a style, but it is certainly more noticeable when I am using the sequencer. I do not believe turning the Master Volume knob up will affect what the limiter does, because I can use headphones at a lower volume and it still works according to the settings that I have made.

I do not use any of the stock Limiter presets. I made my own, which is why I sent my settings for one of them over to you.

When I use the Limiter with a Style and change settings in the limiter, I can hear the drums get more pronounced (louder) than when I have the Limiter on a more conservative setting. I have 3 or 4 custom settings for the Limiter (and the EQ) and they are based on how I am using the keyboard:

1. Nursing Homes #1 where I am using the internal sound system - I have a setting that squashes a bit more to save the bass reflexes on the speakers when I get to around 50% volume. Again, the G chord (any major/minor variation, as long as the root bass note is a G2), will flex the speakers more than any other chords (at least on my keyboard). I squash everything with my settings that I put in the other post.

2. Nursing Homes #2 where I am playing a smaller room - I use less limiting so that more comes through.

3. Sequencer Mode - I basically turn the limiting portion off (except for extreme signal spikes) and let almost the full signal come through.

4. Gain Adjust mode for when going through a PA and bypassing the internal speakers - self explanatory.

I have different settings for the EQ as well, and they are based on the room and whether or not I am using an external PA.

I used an external PA at one of my performances today and so I used the setting where the limiter is basically turned off but is still adjusting the gain about +5 db.

I will be playing the PA700 at church on Sunday morning and I will go mono into their PA system and will use the internal speakers as my monitor. After church, I have an outdoor gig and will bring my big PA system for that. I will use the Gain Adjust setting for that one, probably.

The ONLY time I have experienced distortion in my PA700 is when I am recording an MP3 of a MIDI file. The file in question was 'Sweet Dreams' from Eurythmics. I was getting popping noise with the drums and it only appeared when I was using the Sequencer Mode for the Limiter (at any volume). It turns out that there were multiple drum sounds at the same time and it overloaded the signal path. It did not 'pop' when I was in my Nursing Home #1 Limiter setting. I have to go into the file and take some of the notes out so I do not overload the signal path.

The other time was when I was recording 'Rough Boy' from ZZ Top and it was only the beginning 6 drum hits. I need to turn them down so they do not over load the MP3 recording. I record the MIDI files to MP3 so the other members of the group can practice at home to what I am playing on my PA700 (and other boards).

I do not have confirmation yet, but I think that the Gain Adjust setting is in the path before you record an MP3. This means that I would need to turn the Gain Adjust down to record an MP3 that is not too hot. I usually have to port the MP3 files to Audacity and reduce them by about 2-3 db.

I hope that this helps a bit more. I know it can be a bit frustrating, but the Master EFX are really there to help, but they can be tricky Smile

Grace,
Harry
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Randelph
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Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 439
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry,
Wow. Lots to ponder here, but straight off wanted to thank you for so much useful info!!! The questions have been popping out of me today and I find myself more and more capable of navigating this amazing board.

Considering how many Styles, Songs, rhythyms, sounds I have to explore and organize, and learn to be quick in getting what I need in the heat of the performance, the jam, the recording. That's a lot! Just at the beginning now. Will be curious to hear about the circular paths others took to making all of the above familiar, the process you made up to make your board your own!
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randelph wrote:
Harry,
Wow. Lots to ponder here, but straight off wanted to thank you for so much useful info!!! The questions have been popping out of me today and I find myself more and more capable of navigating this amazing board.

Considering how many Styles, Songs, rhythyms, sounds I have to explore and organize, and learn to be quick in getting what I need in the heat of the performance, the jam, the recording. That's a lot! Just at the beginning now. Will be curious to hear about the circular paths others took to making all of the above familiar, the process you made up to make your board your own!


I am happy to help Smile If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, or post them here, and I can try to answer them. This is such a great group in here too and there are so many that have a lot of knowledge of these arrangers Smile

Grace,
Harry
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