Korg Forums

[mrgl]

Hello,
I'm evaluating a Kronos 2 during my 30-day free return period offered by a very famous online distributor, and I started having some second thoughts about my purchase.

While using it, I noticed a number of quirks in the UX. Maybe that't because as a millennial I've grown up used more to computers than hardware.

I noticed that if I edit a program and switch to another one (often by mistake), when I return to the previous program, my changes are lost.

Is there a way to prevent this behaviour?

Also, does the COMPARE button only revert the last change? Sometimes I hit some know by mistake and I don't know how to revert it.

[GregC]

I think a mind set adjustment is often needed. Because you are now in +9 yr old quirky land for the OS.

I often say this, Kronos is not your iPad. Its not your uncles 10 yr old Windows PC. And so on , etc etc.

Yes, if you want to edit a factory program, it now becomes your program or a user Program. So sure, you need to write the edit to SSD. Not unlike changing your co-workers Excel spreadsheet or Word document.

Yes, Compare is cool in that it only goes back 1 step.

As they say, Ready, Aim, Fire.

vs Ready, Fire, etc

Or use the Exit button.

Kronos is quite versatile, but you will need to adapt to it. Approach it with a blank slate.

I think you should watch Korgs uTube video on Kronos navigation/global etc. Their videos are much better use of time vs trial and error
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

[mrgl]

I agree but then I look at my bank account and I see 2400 pounds missing, whereas I could still buy a Korg D1 still with an excellent RH3 keybed and get Reason 10 for 300 quid on my computer. In that, I'd save 1600£.

The deal breaker (or maker) will be Karma I think.

What bothers me is not that I have to save the program, that's fair enough, but that if I just hit the value slider or wheel when by chance the program number is highlighted, I lose every change made to it in a blink of an eye.

[GregC]

[mrgl]

I've been dreaming of a Kronos since Oasys times, when I was a teenager. Now, almost 15 years later, I finally bought it but reality is that computer software has advanced exponentially, while at Korg they keep the same UI since the Trinity times.

I just tried a demo of Reason 10 and what I recognise Kronos has is lots of meaningful presets, while on Reason you have to build lots of connections.

Also the drum track is populated with almost a thousand well made loops. That's something I really appreciate.

Kronos, though, sits in an uncanny place where it's not as snappy and advanced as a computer, but it's no longer an instrument you turn on and play.

Another thing that I don't understand is the fact that audio tracks are mono. Why on earth? Why are the audio inputs mono too? I expected to be able to connect both my computer and my phone via stereo audio input and record them to a stereo track.

Also, loading a track from disk requires me to convert it to wav (on my computer), then load each L and R channel to a separate audio track in the sequencer. How is it possible that no-one noticed this ridiculous workflow issue?

Still, I want to keep it, as it is a gorgeous object and it looks like it'll last for the next 10 years.

[psionic311]

When you edit a program, you can press the Rec/Write to quickly save everything in place.

To avoid accidentally changing programs, just touch the panel on some random parameter, like the one you're updating. That way if you accidentally hit the data slider or INC button it will only change that parameter and not the actual program itself.

--------------------------------

I would say that the largest target market of a Kronos is mostly older cover musicians. Its strengths are making combis using a variety of synth engines that are important to cover musicians -- electric piano and organs (60s and 70s, modern worship), grand piano, MS20 and PolySix virtuals (70s, 80s, 90s), MOD7 for FM (80s, 90s). Its linear sequencer with audio tracks comes from the 90s as well.

The original definition of a workstation was one device that could produce sounds (synth, rompler), record tracks (sequencer), and maybe polish them up with FX, so that you could make complete songs on it. The Kronos is the ultimate hardware evolution of that workstation concept. But the big manufacturers are moving away from that business model, since the modern workstation is the DAW.

As a millenial, you have to ask yourself what your musical goals are. Do you need the particular engines and the particular sequencer in a Kronos? What kind of music do you want to make, and what's the best "engines" to produce that music?

[GregC]

[psionic311]

[Lightbringer]

The only thing I'd add to the excellent comments here is that a computer + midi controller + Reason (or other software) does not necessarily equal Kronos. I'm not knocking the former. I also have and use iPad apps, VSTs, computer DAWs, other MIDI hardware controllers and sequencers, even modular synths. There are pros and cons to each.

With the Kronos though, everything - 9 excellent synth engines, a comprehensive FX rack, KARMA, a full MIDI and audio sequencer, the hardware control surface, open sampling system, RPPR, drum tracks, wavesequencing, etc. - it's all integrated together in one single-vendor, self-contained package with built in hardware control. So you don't spend time thinking about (or troubleshooting) Rewiring your rack to your DAW, MIDI controller assignments, or whether this or that effect app is audiobus compatible. It all just works seamlessly together. For me that's pretty refreshing.

I've had ups and downs with the UI. Sometimes I wish they'd give it a new, more modern look. But the truth is, I think it's all been very carefully thought out. If it does something a certain way, there's probably a reason. That reason might not be apparent to you in your first weeks/months of use, but you might come to appreciate it sometime a little further into your journey. It's a deep, deep box.

Good luck with your decision!

[danmusician]

I started my professional music life with and Ensoniq EPS an it's onboard sequencer. I produced an entire album and a lot of performance tracks on it's dinky sequencer with one line of text for editing. Fast forward a few years, and I get the ever more capable Korg 01/W pro. But by that time, I had also gotten a Mac SE/30 with Performer. Once I got the computer, I never created music in an onboard sequencer again. My workflow became creating tracks in Performer, saving as a SMF, then transferring to the keyboard's onboard sequencer for live performances. That's still my workflow with the Kronos.

I agree with the OP that there are many quirks in the Kronos OS. Nothing is intuitive unless you've been using Korg keyboards for 20 years. Editing tracks in the sequencer is a pain. The method for routing effects is ridiculous. I've created a few multisampled instruments. Also a counterintuitive process.

Having said all that, I think the Kronos is an amazing instrument. I recommend using it with a computer rather than a computer alone. I have many sequences that include MIDI tracks from the Kronos and audio tracks rendered from software instruments in my Mac. That way on stage, I have one instrument and no laptop.

I believe the Kronos is the last workstation. I hope to be wrong, but don't expect to be. The other manufacturers have gotten out of the market. Korg hasn't shown any interest in updating the platform. Even when parts such as motherboards are no longer available, they don't take advantage of any additional processing power. The OS keeps the Kronos where it was.

Developing, testing and releasing a new OS is expensive and time consuming. To give the Kronos a "modern" interface would take a major rewrite. I just don't see Korg making that investment. The limited number of workstation buyers makes that a low margin effort. That's why we see Korg bringing out so many other products.
_________________
Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49

[GregC]

[psionic311]

The possibility of the Kronos being the last flagship hardware workstation does make it more intriguing to own.

[SeedyLee]

Just wanted to offer a few of my thoughts. Your comments about being a millennial are interesting as a few of my friends are teachers and they're saying that today's generation are great with iPads etc, but don't know their way around a computer at all, and didn't realise that saving files was a thing!

Personally, I'm part of the microgeneration right between Gen X and Millenials. I'm young enough to have had mobile phones towards the end of school, I'm old enough to remember using pay phones regularly and a time before the internet. I have used computers from the early 80s, right through to the latest advances in UI design.

Every UI has quirks and design issues. No UI will operate the same as every user thinks. But I actually think the Kronos UI is really good in a lot of areas. Let me explain why.

It's actually really consistent. Being implemented by one team means that all the UI elements operate extremenly consistently across the device. The layout is the same, and it's easy to intuit what a key or control will do before activating it.

I actually find the exact opposite with music software. The problem with music software is that you run VSTs, which run inside a DAW, which in turn operate within an Operating System. Each of these layers can have different UI elements, usage semantics, and design philosophies. A keyboard shortcut that works in one VST may not work in another VST. Knobs may need to be dragged up in the DAW to increase their value, but dragged down to decrease their value in a VST. Different products use different UI toolkits, built by different graphic designers. It actually drives me up the wall.

Using your example of clearing a program you've been working on is a fair criticism, but not uncommon. It's easy to accidentally do the same thing in many DAWs. For example, playing around with Digital Performer recently I accidentally discovered a keyboard shortcut that changes the preset of the current VST - losing any edits in the process. This isn't about computers vs hardware - afterall, the Kronos is really just a computer. This is about good interface design vs bad interface design.

Now, in your particular case, it's probably largely down to a lack of familiarity rather than a fundamental design flaw with the Kronos. This isn't a criticism, anything that is unfamiliar is hard to use the first time. iPhones are supposedly very easy to use, but how many people know that there's a design quirk where if you shake the phone, it will invoke the "Undo" feature in whatever app you're in, potentially causing you to lose what you've just done?


Regarding accidentally deleting your edits to a program or combi, the value slider or data wheel will only change to the next program IF the program name is selected on the screen. If you make any edits, chances are the program name will not be selected, and moving the value slider or data wheel will do nothing except for change whatever value is selected. To actually lose your edits, you'd have to either make a whole bunch of changes, explicitly go back to the Main page, select the Program Name (or hit Exit bunch of times), and then change the value slider. So it's possible, but very unlikely once you're a little acquainted with the system. I can count the number of times I've accidentally not saved an edited program on two fingers.


The other thing you can do is make sure you save often: you can do this by hitting the sequencer "Write" button on the front panel whenever you want to save. It's actually quicker than saving a preset in many DAWs!

Is the Kronos UI perfect? No, far from it. It's quite dated in many ways, but I actually like that Korg have kept it consistent from the Trion. I do think it's very consistent and discoverable, and I like that a lot.


Just as one closing note, I work professionally in IT and I hate using computers for music. They are unreliable, exhibit terrible latency, and have inconsistent (often awful) UIs. Whereas I really enjoy working on the Kronos for reasons that are difficult to articulate. I personally think it's worth sticking with it, even though most modern computers are potentially vastly more powerful and flexible.
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One

[pete.m]

Well said, SeedyLee!

[19naia]

Stick with Kronos until you get a better sense of all that it offers as a controller and standalone workstation, synth and stage performance keyboard.
You are making clear that you don’t see the $£€¥ value in Kronos, but you are also making clear that you don’t see all that Kronos offers even if it is offered in a way that does not match what you learned to expect on Computers.

You can get Reason for cheap, but Korg D1 is hardly a midi controller in comparison to Kronos.

I add the cost up this way: Computer cost + Software DAW+plugins cost + controller cost.

Kronos all by itself has the computer included, the software and plugins included, the controller included, the audio interface included, Karma included and all of that in one unit that only needs external speakers or headphones.
And on top of all that, you still get the flexibility to connect a self sufficient kronos to a smart phone or ipad, a computer or connected to all kinds of different midi gear.

All i have is Kronos and iPad.
I study up on and follow Main-stage, Logic pro and Macbook pro, all for the eventual day when i get those to add to Kronos.
But Kronos and a few decent apps on iPad, are enough to keep me preoccupied enough to keep waiting to get the macbook. The longer i wait, the better the MacBooks get at each new release, and i don’t get bored waiting with Kronos and a well loaded iPad.