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Synth or Sampler version for synthwave
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Idagani



Joined: 16 Jun 2019
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:36 am    Post subject: Synth or Sampler version for synthwave Reply with quote

Hi all,

I am interested in getting either the synth or the sampler version,
Would like to make synthwave tracks on them.
After doing a lot of reading and you-tubing I'm still not sure which one to choose.
So, would like to ask for your opinions.

thanks !!!
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TheDoctor
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Joined: 28 Mar 2019
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here my thoughts from an Electribe lover.

Definitely the blue offer more oscillator type and more filter which they make a big difference in sound design, after all is subtractive synthesis. The extra filter have basically different slope and a different overdrive setting(in the old blue one you had the drive knob) so basically you lose the ability to control the drive amount but you gain different filter with different character, don't worry the drive is really suttle, it's more a saturation/color.

Now it really depend if you're using the Electribe as a synthesizer or you'll use the sample for drums too. I try to explain:as you know the Electribe has 24 voice and it count effect and filter, so consider a sound playing one note with filter and IFX as 3 voice, a sound with 3 note chord,filter and IFX is 6 voice. In total you can have 8 mono synth with filter and IFX, the MFX doesn't count.
Note this mean simultaneously, of course. But I usually count like this just to don't deal with voice stealing and spot if something get cut out.

The advantage of the Sampler is that you can sample and resample of course.
You could resample your synth, add extra filter,modulation and IFX or simply to save up voice. I often create multi oscillator sound, all in gate without the AMP EG, resample, try to loop it smoothly(sometimes it take a bit) and then I basically have a sample will all that madness. Or you could resample the loop.
The Sampler shine for drums, especially for layer and resample. The extra oscillator are really nice to finish a track and create weird synth sound. The loop idea is ok but you'll deal with the small internal memory(I get around with it to just have a blank library and after 3/4 song I export everything and start from zero, I found out a lot of time I was not using more than the 70% of my custom samples, also it push me to always get creative and make new stuff).

So in the end I think the best deal is got both, I know Very Happy...I'm thinking to get the Blue one to resample the synth of it and go madness haha.
At the same time you'll find "limited" the synth of the Sampler(you have basic wave,unison,sync and noise), the Edit knob is what make those synth shine and the more the type of Oscillator the more function for the Edit knob you'll get(I really suggest to explore it with modulation).
In the end you can still put drums on the Blue one, if you work with it they sound great(but still you'll use effect and limit the synth possibility).

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGB0Qldgo-wOwVQYDnyijMg?view_as=subscriber

here a bit of stuff I did with mine Smile.

Welcome to the Tribe!
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Idagani



Joined: 16 Jun 2019
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheDoctor - appreciate the detailed response !!!

I am coming from a daw based setup - I use one hardware VA synth and a few soft synths, so know what is subtractive synthesis is and how to program sound.
I am looking for a more "limited" hardware setup to see if that can inspire me more (sometimes you get less with too many features).

I saw the E2/S are a kind of limited VA (only 1 oscillator vs 2-3+ in other "regular" synths) so that is interesting for me,
using effects and filters in synthwave is a must, so I guess in reality if I use 3 note chords, I will use 3 note X 3 voices (note, filter, ifx) = 9 voices for each preset, that does't leave me too much room,
probably I could get away with less if I only use the reverb master fx that doesn't take up a note, so then it drops to 3 note X 2 voices (note, filter) = 6 notes, but still limited to 4 tracks,
so your remarks about getting both synth and sampler makes sense, but then the cost is doubled.
I did not think of that, maybe there is a better solution with better polyphony for double the cost, (think of buying used so each is $200-$250) I have to check.

The idea of re-sampling sounds very interesting, you could create a complex sound on the sampler, re-sample it and then it uses much less voices (I usually use 4+ note chords) can be 1 voice.

Very nice you Youtube video's !!!, make some more, looks like a lot of fun.

So 2 questions please -

1.) how easy/hard it is to make new sounds after you have re-sampled something ?
i.e., I load some samples, do some sound design, sample and now I have to make it sound good by looping - can that be done easily and it will sound good ?

2.) from what I read/saw I understood that the sampler is kind of a 1 note sampler that then transposed up/down by playing, its not multi-samples.
How good is that transpose - can you go up/down +/-1/2 octaves with decent results ? (I'm thinking about pad sounds where I have 4-5 notes spread around 2 octaves)

Again thank you very much for the help !!!
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TheDoctor
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idagani wrote:
TheDoctor - appreciate the detailed response !!!

I am coming from a daw based setup - I use one hardware VA synth and a few soft synths, so know what is subtractive synthesis is and how to program sound.
I am looking for a more "limited" hardware setup to see if that can inspire me more (sometimes you get less with too many features).

I saw the E2/S are a kind of limited VA (only 1 oscillator vs 2-3+ in other "regular" synths) so that is interesting for me,
using effects and filters in synthwave is a must, so I guess in reality if I use 3 note chords, I will use 3 note X 3 voices (note, filter, ifx) = 9 voices for each preset, that does't leave me too much room,
probably I could get away with less if I only use the reverb master fx that doesn't take up a note, so then it drops to 3 note X 2 voices (note, filter) = 6 notes, but still limited to 4 tracks,
so your remarks about getting both synth and sampler makes sense, but then the cost is doubled.
I did not think of that, maybe there is a better solution with better polyphony for double the cost, (think of buying used so each is $200-$250) I have to check.

The idea of re-sampling sounds very interesting, you could create a complex sound on the sampler, re-sample it and then it uses much less voices (I usually use 4+ note chords) can be 1 voice.

Very nice you Youtube video's !!!, make some more, looks like a lot of fun.

So 2 questions please -

1.) how easy/hard it is to make new sounds after you have re-sampled something ?
i.e., I load some samples, do some sound design, sample and now I have to make it sound good by looping - can that be done easily and it will sound good ?

2.) from what I read/saw I understood that the sampler is kind of a 1 note sampler that then transposed up/down by playing, its not multi-samples.
How good is that transpose - can you go up/down +/-1/2 octaves with decent results ? (I'm thinking about pad sounds where I have 4-5 notes spread around 2 octaves)

Again thank you very much for the help !!!


You get wrong about the voice counting:the filter and effect count one each even with 4 note, we 3 note chord+filter+IFX=5...the MFX doesn't count as voice and it has it's own automation.

In reality you have multiple oscillator depending on the osc type.
For example saw/triangle/sine the edit is a multiplier/shape know, in pulse is pulse width. With unison-saw/etc you basically have multiple oscillator and the edit detune them, in the blue I think you got also FM and change the FM amount or something like that.
I often do like this with synth make a patch with note recorded, copy in another pad and change oscillator, surely you can't perform with the filter and stuff but you can create nice patch like this.

The problem about both Electribe is the delay when you chain pattern. If you have note or long tail in the end of the pattern and you chain with the next one if get cut out and there's a tiny delay, when the pattern loops it won't cut the tail, so my suggestion is work in one pattern as possible, the mute is a midi mute so it won't count that voice in the mid time you play other parts and you chain with another pattern when you need, you can help with delay and reverb for transaction or to be honest as I do I sequence in Maschine from the Electribe.

When you sample a loop, it wil play as one-shoot so you just need to put the first step in the sequence. You can not worry if it's cut precisely because when it loop it will start again, of course make sure that loops is set to Mono2, so it retrig everytime. Note if you mute that loops it will still play till the end, mute is midi so it won't get triggered next time, if you like to do that you should cut your loop in the sample edit precisely to stop at the end. If you change the loop start point,in the sample edit, to 00000 sample it basically act as gate, so if you want that loop you have to record a sustained note, if you mute/unmute it get triggered again it won't play where is it. You can actually slice your loop so it will stretch to any tempo and if I remember correctly when you mute/unmute it will just play as it is, you just have to input every step in the sequencer.

Few sample have pitch spread across multiple octave and usually expensive gear doesn't sound good, software is way better in that case, like Ableton is really strong at changing pitch without changing tempo.

I found 1/2 octave fine like any other sample, yeah it will change a bit but that's the beauty of a sampler too otherwise you use Kontakt and that sort of stuff. I often find interesting sounds when pitch up and down, resample it and use that.
Not even Digitakt has that, you should go for an Octatrack to get time stretching but as I say Ableton is way better.
Electribe 's not the smoothest for certain thing like note edit,sample management (you don't have a fade option which often can sort out clicks and pops),voice,some effect but it's super fun, fast to shape sounds, everything it's there, the filter sounds great, the blue even better,the edit know with sample is start/rev point, the modulation knob give you interesting results and sound, it's awesome modulate the edit with the sample you get this weird reverse sound blending with the original, effects are ok but they get you there with two knob.

I found the Sampler stronger, because it's an ok sampler, with nice shape possibility with built in synth(they sound good, the saw is super similar to the Volca Keys) . Digitakt is crazy, cost the double, is a better sampler and sequence but it can't do synth, you can use single cycle waveform but you can do in the Electribe too and you save money
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thebiglebowski
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Joined: 22 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here’s my synthwave-specific answer. Synthwave is based on classic 80s drum machines: Linn, DMX, 707, Yamaha RX series, etc.
The blue/gray synth version of Electribe has a selection of drum sounds geared at modern EDM/techno.
So if you want create synthwave, I think the synth version may be too limiting to create the typical synthwave drum sound.
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Poumtschak
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheDoctor wrote:
as you know the Electribe has 24 voice and it count effect and filter, so consider a sound playing one note with filter and IFX as 3 voice, a sound with 3 note chord,filter and IFX is 6 voice. In total you can have 8 mono synth with filter and IFX, the MFX doesn't count.


It's now common knowledge that - unfortunately - synth parameters and IFX are impacting the alledged CPU/DSP resources on the electribe2. But I'm not sure it's as simple as just one voice each per part where there are activated on.

I don't think IFX algorithms are all equal, processing power wise. Some are very light audio processing like level manipulation (puncher, pumper). I would'nt even be suprised if some others were just realtime MIDI (or whatever the electribe uses internally to trigger notes) processing. Delays for example.

Just my 0.02€.
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Last edited by Poumtschak on Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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thebiglebowski
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Joined: 22 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The voice limitations are documented by Korg. Quote from the Electribe FAQ on Korg’s website:

“Don't use the following Insert FX which have a high processing load.
06 Ring Modulator, 18 Delay 1/4, 19 Delay 3/16, 20 Delay 1/8, 21 Delay 1/16, 22 Roller 1/32, 23 One Delay, 24 Short Delay, 25 Ring Delay1, 26 Ring Delay2, 27 Chorus, 28 Flanger LFO, 29 Flanger +, 30 Flanger -
- On parts that do not use Insert FX, set the IFX Type to 01 Punch.
- On parts that do not use Filter, set Filter Type to the Off setting. “

https://www.korg.com/us/support/faq/367/
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TheDoctor
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebiglebowski wrote:
The voice limitations are documented by Korg. Quote from the Electribe FAQ on Korg’s website:

“Don't use the following Insert FX which have a high processing load.
06 Ring Modulator, 18 Delay 1/4, 19 Delay 3/16, 20 Delay 1/8, 21 Delay 1/16, 22 Roller 1/32, 23 One Delay, 24 Short Delay, 25 Ring Delay1, 26 Ring Delay2, 27 Chorus, 28 Flanger LFO, 29 Flanger +, 30 Flanger -
- On parts that do not use Insert FX, set the IFX Type to 01 Punch.
- On parts that do not use Filter, set Filter Type to the Off setting. “

https://www.korg.com/us/support/faq/367/

Thank you for the detailed answer. That's one of the reason we have different delay,chorus,flanger as a MFX, make sense.
It's also nice to know that set to 01 Punch IFX if not used, help.
So do you think the other effect take one voice or less? And these take 2 maybe? I noticed once with a delay seems to get 2 voice.

For the other guy, I was just trying to explain him a general rule for the Electribe voice limitation.
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TheDoctor
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poumtschak wrote:
TheDoctor wrote:
as you know the Electribe has 24 voice and it count effect and filter, so consider a sound playing one note with filter and IFX as 3 voice, a sound with 3 note chord,filter and IFX is 6 voice. In total you can have 8 mono synth with filter and IFX, the MFX doesn't count.


It's now common knowledge that - unfirtunately - synth parameters and IFX are impacting the alledged CPU/DSP resources on the electribe2. But I'm not sure it's as simple as just one voice each per part where there are activated on.

I don't think IFX algorithms are all equal, processing power wise. Some are very light audio processing like level manipulation (puncher, pumper). I would'nt even be suprised if some others were just realtime MIDI (or whatever the electribe uses internally to trigger notes) processing. Delays for example.

Just my 0.02€.


They actually improve this so the IFX is counted as one voice even if you have 3 note in a part. For the delay type effects it counts 2
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Idagani



Joined: 16 Jun 2019
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for all the responses !!! greatly appreciated.

I am thinking about the sampler now - I have a friend who is still old school using his trusty Akai sampler,
he has a large library of sample cd's so I'm sure I can find something interesting for synthwave there,
my question is regarding the import process, importing dozens / hundreds of samples one by one can be very time consuming,
I saw that there are some 3rd party programs that let you quickly group samples into 1 bank and load it to the E2S,
are these programs also help finding good loop points automatically ?

(lots of non drums samples have looping points on the akai sample cd's, if i import the samples to wav I loose that information, so I need to recreate it again for the E2S)

Thanks Smile
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TheDoctor
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idagani wrote:
thanks for all the responses !!! greatly appreciated.

I am thinking about the sampler now - I have a friend who is still old school using his trusty Akai sampler,
he has a large library of sample cd's so I'm sure I can find something interesting for synthwave there,
my question is regarding the import process, importing dozens / hundreds of samples one by one can be very time consuming,
I saw that there are some 3rd party programs that let you quickly group samples into 1 bank and load it to the E2S,
are these programs also help finding good loop points automatically ?

(lots of non drums samples have looping points on the akai sample cd's, if i import the samples to wav I loose that information, so I need to recreate it again for the E2S)

Thanks Smile

You only have 270 sec with a blank memory. I use this http://appification.de/ElectribeSampleManager/ but it's really basic, the thing I like is that I can change the category so I can scroll with the shift but that't it, there are others who let you see the waveform but honestly if you want the quickest way, open your DAW...you'll get Ableton Live Lite with the Electribe. Otherwise you had to do by hear on the Electribe, that's it. Your next options for an easy sample managment is Digitakt.

Personally for loops I just let it play and when it loops after 4 bar it get triggered again. But I don't use so often.

I think you get the best by resample instrument/synth/drums sound and use loop only when you have to save voice or you want have fun and mess it up.

The audio slice is not bad, it give you the lengh in step, often it get right and you set the number of slice. You can add and remove slice by shift+pad.
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Idagani



Joined: 16 Jun 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheDoctor -
I was not asking about samples that are loops, but rather samples
that have loops in them - if you check page 6 in the parameter guide
you'll see a sample has a sample start point, sample end point and
loop start point.
for electribe there is no seperate loop end point - it has to be the
sample end point

so my question is - instead of doing it manually for each sample,
is there any sample manager that can find the loop start point automatically ?

(for example. a pad sound that has a short sample but inside the sample there is a loop,
that loop begins somewhere after the start of the sample and the sampler will keep looping as long as you hold the key or pad)


Thanks Smile
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roblabs
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I have never had issues with voice stealing. I have both electribe2 versions and have made lots of stuff with them as well as played many live shows with them. Ask yourself, how many parts do you really need to be playing at one time?

The other thing to consider is that you can and should take off filters off of the drum parts if you don't really need them.


Ps I've made synthwave tracks using both electribes
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Idagani



Joined: 16 Jun 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roblabs - thank you for the clarification, awsome that I found another synthwave lover, do you have links to your electribe synthwave tracks ?

Regarding my question about a software setting start / end loop points automatically, I found this program :

https://github.com/JonathanTaquet/Oe2sSLE/releases

imported a juno 106 fat pad wav file into the program and it found the
loop points automatically, wow, that is great, however I do not have the
electribe so can't test it on the hardware, are other es2 users using this program on their units ?

Thanks Smile
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TheDoctor
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idagani wrote:
roblabs - thank you for the clarification, awsome that I found another synthwave lover, do you have links to your electribe synthwave tracks ?

Regarding my question about a software setting start / end loop points automatically, I found this program :

https://github.com/JonathanTaquet/Oe2sSLE/releases

imported a juno 106 fat pad wav file into the program and it found the
loop points automatically, wow, that is great, however I do not have the
electribe so can't test it on the hardware, are other es2 users using this program on their units ?

Thanks Smile


I had few problem with that app, slice not counted correctly and single cycle waveform pitched differently. This is what I use, simple but I never had problem with it http://appification.de/ElectribeSampleManager/
Honestly about your other question, not even Maschine does that I mean you can change the end loop point but still it will at the end loop point not after one cycle and it won't decay after the looped section.
The best way to do that is having synth sound in gate and you find the right start point, if your wave is steady it will loop properly and you can create anything with it with the AMP EG on.
Honestly if you're not willing to spend time to cut your sample in a device just don't buy it, I don't see the point in cut your sample in a computer and move later everything in that device, i don't like sample playback gear for this reason.

Also for voice stealing I often found myself with not big problems. I can easily use up to 10 parts, usually my pattern has max 2 resampled loop
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