Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SeedyLee
Platinum Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1135
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:04 am    Post subject: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 Reply with quote

So I've been playing around with my old Roland JV-1080, which I've had for a few years but never really had a chance to dive into programming with. It got me thinking about how a 1994 rompler compares to the Kronos, which came out nearly 16 years later.

Obviously they have very different architectures, with the Roland based on dedicated tone generator chips and the Kronos using essentially a software synth running on x86 hardware.


So how do they compare?


Well, the Kronos has a much larger sample library library, and can obviously stream samples from disk, which adds a huge amount of realism that something like the JV1080 and its 8MB of sample ROM can never hope to match. The Kronos also has vector synthesis and wave sequencing, which the Roland lacks. Effects are another area where the Kronos obliterates the Roland.


But here's where it gets interesting.


The HD1 engine in the Kronos officially supports 140 voices of polyphony. That's single voices. Layering two voices (or using stereo voices) drops that down to 70. Layering four voices in layers drops that down to 35 voices. In a dual HD1 program, that gives you a total of four envelope generators and five LFOs. There are two filters in dual mode, which offer either 2 or 4 pole operation, bandpass etc. Routing options can only be specified for the whole patch - it's not possible to route individual oscillators to different outputs or effects.


The JV1080 from 1994 has 64 note polyphony, which on paper looks drastically less. But a voice on the JV can consist of four tones - and each tone has its own sample, two envelope generators, two LFOs and filter. Effects can all be routed for each tone, so a single patch can go to four different outputs or effects. That essentially means that for a single HD1 program vs a single JV1080 program:


Number of simultaneous samples: 140 (Kronos) vs 256 (JV1080)

Number of LFOs: 5 (Kronos) vs 10 (JV1080)

Number of Filters: 2 (Kronos) vs 4 (JV1080)

Number of EGs: 2 (Kronos) vs 8 (JV1080)

The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer but can be achieved using Mod 7 (with lower polyphony).

What I've found is that, even though the samples in the JV1080 don't come close to the samples in the Kronos, it's still really usable for sound design, pads and atmospheric textures because of the patch complexity. It also got me thinking about how dedicated hardware for synthesis can still outpower most commodity hardware solutions.

What are other people's thoughts?
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pete.m
Senior Member


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting post, and I agree with much of it. I think that trying to assess the relative merits of a synth is such a personal thing.

We're all dealing with the same building blocks, whatever the synth - oscillators, LFOs, EGs, filters etc, etc - but, beyond that, I think it comes down to the way in which they are presented and how well that suits our individual ways of working. Maybe that is the reason why you never really delved into the JV-1080 before. I know that the type of interface has stopped me from getting the most out of a number of synths that seem incredible on paper. For myself, I find that the Kronos is accessible enough for me to want to get stuck in on a deeper level. That's not to deny that each synth has its own character too, of course.

I have to laugh at some of the synths that come out these days - many of them monophonic or paraphonic, which is a severe limitation. Many of them claim to be doing something new, but they aren't and you pay a lot of money to find it out.

For some years, I have used a Novation KS4 and K Synth, and find that their capabilities easily equal most of the new synths, and in terms of things like effects (seven per patch) and polyphony outstrip them. They work for me because they are so easy to program - they make you want to play about with them, because you know something good will happen. Why would I give up one of those synths - versatile, rock solid and easily available around £150/$200 - for a new monophonic wonderkid costing five times as much that does far less?

Another point needs to be made. Many people (and I have been as guilty as anyone else at times) never really bother to engage with the instrument they have bought. Some years ago, a mate of mine told me he was going to sell the K synth he had had for about four years. I asked why, and he told me it was because he wanted a synth with a vocoder function. I didn't say anything - I just pointed to the vocoder button on the front of the synth...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fes357



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! Are you sure about the polyphony? As I recall, the 64 voices are total, so if your patch has 4 tones, the total polyphony would be 16 voices. I sold mine many years ago, and cannot check this. Same thing is witht he JD series, that I still have. Regards
_________________
KronosX73, JD800, DX7, ARP2600, Prologue 16 Nanopad2, Minilogue, Cubase 8.5, Roland TR08, Model D, Ableton 10, Arturia V Collection 6
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8091
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its fun to compare specs.

The 'capabilities ' is the open palette of the sound designer.

I believe the talented Eric Pershing programmed many of the JV sounds.

My point is that an ordinary mortal is going to get average results out of programming the JV/Roland or a Kronos/Korg.

I am more impressed by high level programming. That stands the test of time.

Many are attracted by the ' new shiny thing '. Of course, the manufacturers expect us and want us to be enchanted by the new shiny thing. And co's like Korg, stop program development of a Kronos, to pursue their business priorities.
This is a rant I have - the business short attention span of manufacturers.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SeedyLee
Platinum Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1135
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fes357 wrote:
Hi! Are you sure about the polyphony? As I recall, the 64 voices are total, so if your patch has 4 tones, the total polyphony would be 16 voices. I sold mine many years ago, and cannot check this. Same thing is witht he JD series, that I still have. Regards


I'm never sure about anything! The manual doesn't actually specify, but Wikipedia says that it supports 64 voices, with 4 tones per voice ... Another page says that it supports 64 voices. or tones.

I might need to experiment myself.

Either way, it's still impressive for something so old.
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KK
Platinum Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 625

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This comparison doesn't work because on one side, the Roland is seen in its entirety and on the other you limit the Kronos to HD-1 mode. Ring modulation and other functions are therefore available as well (and a lot more) on the Kronos side when looked as a whole. Also, the JV-1080 polyphony decreases according to the number of "tones", see its owners manual page 79.

It's OK to enjoy older synths, I still have a few myself that I keep as I like them quite a bit, but the Kronos is simply in a different league. Cool
_________________
Musician, solution designer for keyboard instruments and more.
Kronos : Color LEDs mod12345612345Kronos : Change Quick Layer & Quick Split default programs (PM me for password)
Kronos : Custom velocity curves12345Kronos : Aftertouch hardware solution
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yeskeys
Junior Member


Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 64
Location: Virginia Beach VA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can say that the if you want to play a honkin' sax solo on keyboards (I know, blasphemy), the JV has the best I've ever used, introducing growl with the mod wheel. Nothing else comes close.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Purgatory
Junior Member


Joined: 06 Dec 2018
Posts: 71
Location: Leeds, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeskeys wrote:
I can say that the if you want to play a honkin' sax solo on keyboards (I know, blasphemy), the JV has the best I've ever used, introducing growl with the mod wheel. Nothing else comes close.


http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=758793

Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8091
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purgatory wrote:
yeskeys wrote:
I can say that the if you want to play a honkin' sax solo on keyboards (I know, blasphemy), the JV has the best I've ever used, introducing growl with the mod wheel. Nothing else comes close.


http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=758793

Wink


this isn't even fair. SOP saxes are stellar. Very Happy
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
IAA
Junior Member


Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really interesting question. Funnily enough I used my JV for the SOS one filter challenge because I wanted to limit myself but guess what, the JV is really something else. Makes you realise that good sound design is as much about what you can’t do as what you can.

I did replicate most of these sounds in the Kronos to test out, and of course the Kronos was able to get better fidelity, but in a mix it’s difficult to tell. Anyway here’s the JV piece just for fun. .

https://soundcloud.com/iaamusic-699918500/a-progressive-rainforest Very Happy Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
xp50player
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 364
Location: Nashville

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 tone(mono) = 1 voice of polyphony in the JV/XP. 4 tones doesn’t necessarily = 4 voices of polyphony though, because they might be split/crossfaded by velocity or key range. I made a lot of patches, mostly for cover songs. One thing I like about it is, even with a few choice expansion boards, it’s still a fathomable bunch of waveforms to program from, unlike the Kronos, which goes for days.
Kronos is good for having up to 16 stereo velocity-switched layers in a patch without much of a polyphony penalty. I wish Kronos had the Analog Feel parameter, and the JV/XP could have used additional filter slopes, although you could do it with Structures. The Roland Cloud VSTi version of the JV1080 has more parameters, FX and waveforms from the XV/Fantom series.
_________________
RD-800, Kronos61, Sub37, EX5
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liviou2004
Platinum Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 794
Location: Nemours - France

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
What are other people's thoughts?


Well, it would have never come to my mind to compare these two machines ! But, interesting question !

-----------------------------------------------

Your comparison is not complete. You should also have compared FX (16 simultaneous from 197 for Kronos, 4 maxi from 40 for JV-1080),

The available Rom samples (about 2,400 for Kronos, 448 for JV-1080),
Drumkits samples (about 6,000 in Kronos),

etc, etc.

We could also speak of the huge quantity of modulations sources and destinations in the Kronos, and create special modulation with AMS Mixers....
and of course, the infinite possibiilies of creation via the sampling section and the external sounds banks.

Quote:
The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer


It's not completely true : as its possible to increase LFO speed up to audible range, its possible to recreate Frequency Modulation, Amplitude Modulation and Ring Modulation, inside HD-1

Concerning the filters, for those who need crossmodulation filters, it's easy to use MOD-7 (and STR-1 too), without FM, as a "simple" rom player, and plug PCM ouput inside Filter module.

Quote:
Number of EGs: 2 (Kronos) vs 8 (JV1080)

There are 3 EG in HD-1, not 2 : Pitch EG, Filter EG, Amplitude EG. And for a real comparison, you should consider the quality of these EG (capacity of modulation, etc....)
Quote:

it's not possible to route individual oscillators to different outputs or effects.


Why don't you create a combi with two Prog ? It's so easy then to patch toward the effects you want !

------------------------------------------

So, finally, I wonder if such a comparison is really significant !!
_________________
Kronos 2 73, Moog Grandmother, Studiologic Sledge 2, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha P90 / Electro Harmonix Vocoder V256, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro / Soundcraft Mixer EFX12, JBL LSR308, Behringer FX2000 3D


Last edited by Liviou2004 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
psionic311
Platinum Member


Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1042
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
SeedyLee wrote:
The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer


It's not completely true : as its possible to increase LFO speed up to audible range, its possible to recreate Frequency Modulation, Amplitude Modulation and Ring Modulation, inside HD-1

Concerning the filters, for those who need crossmodulation filters, it's easy to use MOD-7 (and STR-1 too), without FM, as a "simple" rom player, and plug PCM ouput inside Filter module.


Very good points. Using the MOD-7 or STR-1 engines to process PCM samples in order to access EXI functions is yet another great strength of the Kronos. Especially since each Program can consist of 2 engines that can route signals between them. This flexibility is again amplified when using COMBI mode to have the Timbres/Programs interact with each other.

So it is the whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. It sounds like a cliche, but the Kronos is a beast.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liviou2004
Platinum Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 794
Location: Nemours - France

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
Liviou2004 wrote:
SeedyLee wrote:
The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer


It's not completely true : as its possible to increase LFO speed up to audible range, its possible to recreate Frequency Modulation, Amplitude Modulation and Ring Modulation, inside HD-1

Concerning the filters, for those who need crossmodulation filters, it's easy to use MOD-7 (and STR-1 too), without FM, as a "simple" rom player, and plug PCM ouput inside Filter module.


Very good points. Using the MOD-7 or STR-1 engines to process PCM samples in order to access EXI functions is yet another great strength of the Kronos. Especially since each Program can consist of 2 engines that can route signals between them. This flexibility is again amplified when using COMBI mode to have the Timbres/Programs interact with each other.

So it is the whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. It sounds like a cliche, but the Kronos is a beast.


Agree ! The versatility of the Kronos is really incredible. And using Combination as a sound creation tool (and not only for stacking sounds together) increases this versatility.
_________________
Kronos 2 73, Moog Grandmother, Studiologic Sledge 2, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha P90 / Electro Harmonix Vocoder V256, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro / Soundcraft Mixer EFX12, JBL LSR308, Behringer FX2000 3D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Derek Cook
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1121
Location: Wales, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Purgatory wrote:
yeskeys wrote:
I can say that the if you want to play a honkin' sax solo on keyboards (I know, blasphemy), the JV has the best I've ever used, introducing growl with the mod wheel. Nothing else comes close.


http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=758793

Wink


this isn't even fair. SOP saxes are stellar. Very Happy


Ah, but have you ever tried a Yamaha VL (virtual acoustic) sax via breath controller, in either the VL1, VL70m, EX5 or PLG150-VL. No contest (other than the real thing!). Smile
_________________
Derek Cook - Java Developer



Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board

My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group