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SeedyLee Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 1370 Location: Perth, Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:04 am Post subject: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 |
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So I've been playing around with my old Roland JV-1080, which I've had for a few years but never really had a chance to dive into programming with. It got me thinking about how a 1994 rompler compares to the Kronos, which came out nearly 16 years later.
Obviously they have very different architectures, with the Roland based on dedicated tone generator chips and the Kronos using essentially a software synth running on x86 hardware.
So how do they compare?
Well, the Kronos has a much larger sample library library, and can obviously stream samples from disk, which adds a huge amount of realism that something like the JV1080 and its 8MB of sample ROM can never hope to match. The Kronos also has vector synthesis and wave sequencing, which the Roland lacks. Effects are another area where the Kronos obliterates the Roland.
But here's where it gets interesting.
The HD1 engine in the Kronos officially supports 140 voices of polyphony. That's single voices. Layering two voices (or using stereo voices) drops that down to 70. Layering four voices in layers drops that down to 35 voices. In a dual HD1 program, that gives you a total of four envelope generators and five LFOs. There are two filters in dual mode, which offer either 2 or 4 pole operation, bandpass etc. Routing options can only be specified for the whole patch - it's not possible to route individual oscillators to different outputs or effects.
The JV1080 from 1994 has 64 note polyphony, which on paper looks drastically less. But a voice on the JV can consist of four tones - and each tone has its own sample, two envelope generators, two LFOs and filter. Effects can all be routed for each tone, so a single patch can go to four different outputs or effects. That essentially means that for a single HD1 program vs a single JV1080 program:
Number of simultaneous samples: 140 (Kronos) vs 256 (JV1080)
Number of LFOs: 5 (Kronos) vs 10 (JV1080)
Number of Filters: 2 (Kronos) vs 4 (JV1080)
Number of EGs: 2 (Kronos) vs 8 (JV1080)
The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer but can be achieved using Mod 7 (with lower polyphony).
What I've found is that, even though the samples in the JV1080 don't come close to the samples in the Kronos, it's still really usable for sound design, pads and atmospheric textures because of the patch complexity. It also got me thinking about how dedicated hardware for synthesis can still outpower most commodity hardware solutions.
What are other people's thoughts? _________________ Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
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pete.m Senior Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 484
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Interesting post, and I agree with much of it. I think that trying to assess the relative merits of a synth is such a personal thing.
We're all dealing with the same building blocks, whatever the synth - oscillators, LFOs, EGs, filters etc, etc - but, beyond that, I think it comes down to the way in which they are presented and how well that suits our individual ways of working. Maybe that is the reason why you never really delved into the JV-1080 before. I know that the type of interface has stopped me from getting the most out of a number of synths that seem incredible on paper. For myself, I find that the Kronos is accessible enough for me to want to get stuck in on a deeper level. That's not to deny that each synth has its own character too, of course.
I have to laugh at some of the synths that come out these days - many of them monophonic or paraphonic, which is a severe limitation. Many of them claim to be doing something new, but they aren't and you pay a lot of money to find it out.
For some years, I have used a Novation KS4 and K Synth, and find that their capabilities easily equal most of the new synths, and in terms of things like effects (seven per patch) and polyphony outstrip them. They work for me because they are so easy to program - they make you want to play about with them, because you know something good will happen. Why would I give up one of those synths - versatile, rock solid and easily available around £150/$200 - for a new monophonic wonderkid costing five times as much that does far less?
Another point needs to be made. Many people (and I have been as guilty as anyone else at times) never really bother to engage with the instrument they have bought. Some years ago, a mate of mine told me he was going to sell the K synth he had had for about four years. I asked why, and he told me it was because he wanted a synth with a vocoder function. I didn't say anything - I just pointed to the vocoder button on the front of the synth... |
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Fes357
Joined: 27 Apr 2015 Posts: 25
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hi! Are you sure about the polyphony? As I recall, the 64 voices are total, so if your patch has 4 tones, the total polyphony would be 16 voices. I sold mine many years ago, and cannot check this. Same thing is witht he JD series, that I still have. Regards _________________ KronosX73, JD800, DX7, ARP2600, Prologue 16 Nanopad2, Jupiter X, Cubase 8.5, Roland TR08, Model D, Ableton 11, Arturia V Collection 9, Ominsphere 2.8, B System 100, B ARP 2500,SV-2, Roland TR-8s, Drumlogue |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Its fun to compare specs.
The 'capabilities ' is the open palette of the sound designer.
I believe the talented Eric Pershing programmed many of the JV sounds.
My point is that an ordinary mortal is going to get average results out of programming the JV/Roland or a Kronos/Korg.
I am more impressed by high level programming. That stands the test of time.
Many are attracted by the ' new shiny thing '. Of course, the manufacturers expect us and want us to be enchanted by the new shiny thing. And co's like Korg, stop program development of a Kronos, to pursue their business priorities.
This is a rant I have - the business short attention span of manufacturers. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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SeedyLee Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 1370 Location: Perth, Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Fes357 wrote: | Hi! Are you sure about the polyphony? As I recall, the 64 voices are total, so if your patch has 4 tones, the total polyphony would be 16 voices. I sold mine many years ago, and cannot check this. Same thing is witht he JD series, that I still have. Regards |
I'm never sure about anything! The manual doesn't actually specify, but Wikipedia says that it supports 64 voices, with 4 tones per voice ... Another page says that it supports 64 voices. or tones.
I might need to experiment myself.
Either way, it's still impressive for something so old. _________________ Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
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KK Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016 Posts: 1422
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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This comparison doesn't work because on one side, the Roland is seen in its entirety and on the other you limit the Kronos to HD-1 mode. Ring modulation and other functions are therefore available as well (and a lot more) on the Kronos side when looked as a whole. Also, the JV-1080 polyphony decreases according to the number of "tones", see its owners manual page 79.
It's OK to enjoy older synths, I still have a few myself that I keep as I like them quite a bit, but the Kronos is simply in a different league. |
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yeskeys Full Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 128 Location: Virginia Beach VA
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I can say that the if you want to play a honkin' sax solo on keyboards (I know, blasphemy), the JV has the best I've ever used, introducing growl with the mod wheel. Nothing else comes close. |
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Purgatory Junior Member
Joined: 06 Dec 2018 Posts: 94 Location: Leeds, UK
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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yeskeys wrote: | I can say that the if you want to play a honkin' sax solo on keyboards (I know, blasphemy), the JV has the best I've ever used, introducing growl with the mod wheel. Nothing else comes close. |
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=758793
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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this isn't even fair. SOP saxes are stellar. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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IAA Full Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2013 Posts: 131
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Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Really interesting question. Funnily enough I used my JV for the SOS one filter challenge because I wanted to limit myself but guess what, the JV is really something else. Makes you realise that good sound design is as much about what you can’t do as what you can.
I did replicate most of these sounds in the Kronos to test out, and of course the Kronos was able to get better fidelity, but in a mix it’s difficult to tell. Anyway here’s the JV piece just for fun. .
https://soundcloud.com/iaamusic-699918500/a-progressive-rainforest |
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xp50player Senior Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 374 Location: Nashville
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:16 am Post subject: |
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1 tone(mono) = 1 voice of polyphony in the JV/XP. 4 tones doesn’t necessarily = 4 voices of polyphony though, because they might be split/crossfaded by velocity or key range. I made a lot of patches, mostly for cover songs. One thing I like about it is, even with a few choice expansion boards, it’s still a fathomable bunch of waveforms to program from, unlike the Kronos, which goes for days.
Kronos is good for having up to 16 stereo velocity-switched layers in a patch without much of a polyphony penalty. I wish Kronos had the Analog Feel parameter, and the JV/XP could have used additional filter slopes, although you could do it with Structures. The Roland Cloud VSTi version of the JV1080 has more parameters, FX and waveforms from the XV/Fantom series. _________________ RD-800, Kronos 61, Fantom 6, MODX6, 01/Wfd |
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Liviou2004 Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2017 Posts: 1150 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 |
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SeedyLee wrote: | What are other people's thoughts? |
Well, it would have never come to my mind to compare these two machines ! But, interesting question !
-----------------------------------------------
Your comparison is not complete. You should also have compared FX (16 simultaneous from 197 for Kronos, 4 maxi from 40 for JV-1080),
The available Rom samples (about 2,400 for Kronos, 448 for JV-1080),
Drumkits samples (about 6,000 in Kronos),
etc, etc.
We could also speak of the huge quantity of modulations sources and destinations in the Kronos, and create special modulation with AMS Mixers....
and of course, the infinite possibiilies of creation via the sampling section and the external sounds banks.
Quote: | The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer |
It's not completely true : as its possible to increase LFO speed up to audible range, its possible to recreate Frequency Modulation, Amplitude Modulation and Ring Modulation, inside HD-1
Concerning the filters, for those who need crossmodulation filters, it's easy to use MOD-7 (and STR-1 too), without FM, as a "simple" rom player, and plug PCM ouput inside Filter module.
Quote: | Number of EGs: 2 (Kronos) vs 8 (JV1080) |
There are 3 EG in HD-1, not 2 : Pitch EG, Filter EG, Amplitude EG. And for a real comparison, you should consider the quality of these EG (capacity of modulation, etc....)
Quote: |
it's not possible to route individual oscillators to different outputs or effects. |
Why don't you create a combi with two Prog ? It's so easy then to patch toward the effects you want !
------------------------------------------
So, finally, I wonder if such a comparison is really significant !!
Last edited by Liviou2004 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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psionic311 Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2014 Posts: 1046 Location: Orlando, Florida USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 |
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Liviou2004 wrote: | SeedyLee wrote: | The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer |
It's not completely true : as its possible to increase LFO speed up to audible range, its possible to recreate Frequency Modulation, Amplitude Modulation and Ring Modulation, inside HD-1
Concerning the filters, for those who need crossmodulation filters, it's easy to use MOD-7 (and STR-1 too), without FM, as a "simple" rom player, and plug PCM ouput inside Filter module.
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Very good points. Using the MOD-7 or STR-1 engines to process PCM samples in order to access EXI functions is yet another great strength of the Kronos. Especially since each Program can consist of 2 engines that can route signals between them. This flexibility is again amplified when using COMBI mode to have the Timbres/Programs interact with each other.
So it is the whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. It sounds like a cliche, but the Kronos is a beast. |
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Liviou2004 Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2017 Posts: 1150 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 |
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psionic311 wrote: | Liviou2004 wrote: | SeedyLee wrote: | The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer |
It's not completely true : as its possible to increase LFO speed up to audible range, its possible to recreate Frequency Modulation, Amplitude Modulation and Ring Modulation, inside HD-1
Concerning the filters, for those who need crossmodulation filters, it's easy to use MOD-7 (and STR-1 too), without FM, as a "simple" rom player, and plug PCM ouput inside Filter module.
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Very good points. Using the MOD-7 or STR-1 engines to process PCM samples in order to access EXI functions is yet another great strength of the Kronos. Especially since each Program can consist of 2 engines that can route signals between them. This flexibility is again amplified when using COMBI mode to have the Timbres/Programs interact with each other.
So it is the whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. It sounds like a cliche, but the Kronos is a beast. |
Agree ! The versatility of the Kronos is really incredible. And using Combination as a sound creation tool (and not only for stacking sounds together) increases this versatility. |
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Derek Cook Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014 Posts: 1279 Location: Wales, UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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GregC wrote: |
this isn't even fair. SOP saxes are stellar. |
Ah, but have you ever tried a Yamaha VL (virtual acoustic) sax via breath controller, in either the VL1, VL70m, EX5 or PLG150-VL. No contest (other than the real thing!). _________________ Derek Cook - Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website |
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