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Kronos II - not enough drum track patterns available
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b1gb1rd



Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Kronos II - not enough drum track patterns available Reply with quote

I'm seeing this error when I try to convert a midi drum track to a user pattern. The manual says to Save PCG, then erase drum track patterns - I tried this (including erasing all drum track patterns) - but still see the error message. I have set up 80 sequences - each with about 4 bars or less of drums - so I have at most 200 bars of drums, in midi tracks of songs. I have no user patterns set up. I am running OS 3.13 with 3G of memory.

I was seeing the same error when I tried to copy a 4 bar drum pattern from one song to another. The workflow I have been using to set up songs with drums, is to load the standard midi file in song #100 then copy the 4 bar drum pattern to the drum track of the song I have set up with sounds and keysplits for performing that song.

I am thinking there is something incorrect with my workflow, to import GM0 drums into the midi track of a song - that is why I am trying to create user patterns, instead of copying midi data to the songs drum track.

Any suggestions for a better work flow to create a base set of 100+ sequences with drum tracks?

Thanks
B1gB1rd


See below for the manual topic about this error

Not enough Drum Track patternlocations availableMeaning: When converting a song's user patterns to userdrum track patterns, the allowable number of user drumtrack patterns was exceeded. To solve this problem:• As necessary, use the Disk mode Save PCG command tosave the user drum track patterns. Then in Sequencermode, use the Erase Drum Track Pattern menucommand to free up more drum track user patterns. Afterthat, try the conversion again
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19naia
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was hesitant to reply, but then i noticed you mentioned nothing about wether you are in RPPR mode or not?
RPPR mode in sequencer is something i have a bit of experience with and is the only feature i have engaged for making drum patterns into user patterns for Kronos drum track.

What i do is enable RPPR mode in Sequencer and then record the midi drum pattern into a midi track. Then i use RPPR feature to set up the pattern into RPPR user patterns. Once i have it set up as a user pattern in the RPPR pattern slots, i then use the menu command to convert it to a drum track user pattern.
RPPR has its own bank of User patterns that function only within RPPR and those patterns can be created using sequencer or imported from external midi to kronos midi track and then set up as RPPR user pattern.
Then RPPR user patterns have the option of being turned into drum track user patterns.

Yes Kronos has “RPPR user patterns” and “drum track user patterns” as separate features with their own independent banks. But each can draw content from each other to fill their bank slots, and all that happens in Sequencer RPPR mode.

What you described sounds like you are stuck in a glitch, but since you did not mention RPPR in your work flow, i assume you are not in RPPR mode of sequencer. So...i think if you use RPPR to convert to drum track user patterns, you may have better luck.
I have never done user pattern conversion work outside of RPPR mode before and i think i recall it being because i found that it was where kronos specializes in midi pattern work that relates to Drum track user patterns.

It still does not explain why you are getting a “not enough drum track pattern locations available” nor explains why you are making no progress after clearing out the user drum track pattern bank. Maybe that is the only error message it has and it will throw out what error message it has even when you are making an error not related to insufficient user slots.
If your error is not being in RPPR mode of sequencer, then i think you will make good progress by putting sequencer into RPPR for user drum track creation.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, you also said GM drum patterns?
I have never done that, but there is something about GM setup in Kronos.
I think there is a GM optimize feature of some sort for sequencer.

I recall a thread years ago, about special setup for GM tracks.

So i won’t be surprised if the user drum tracks also need some kind of special setup for GM.
I have no way of knowing if i know what i am talking about or if it even applies to user drum tracks.
But Kronos workflow is such that user banks for programs can be HD-1 or EXi.
Also Kronos has programs than are specifically GM programs, and that is why i suspect there may be something extra required to put GM data into slots that are not GM optimized if that even is a thing. Cannot put HD-1 programs in EXi banks and slots or vice versa. And then you have GM programs in their own isolated bank.

I will look up in the parameter guide about setting up GM program tracks in sequencer, in case there is anything to it.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“GM initialize” is what i saw for sequencer when dealing with GM tracks.
But says nothing about handling settings that relate to user drum tracks.

Convert to User drum track is based on converting RPPR user patterns to drum track user patterns, and you do have to be in RPPR mode.
Also, RPPR user patterns fill a bank that has 99 or 100 slots if i remember correctly. So, if the entire RPPR bank is full of patterns, i can see how you could exceed available slots in “User drum-track” bank.
So RPPR patterns are 100 patterns per song, and i doubt there are enough drum track user pattern slots to hold 100 RPPR user patterns per each of the 200 songs the sequencer holds.

I convert one pattern at time, from RPPR user pattern to drum track user pattern.
Go to drum track page in program or combi mode, and ope the drum track select to view your user drum track bank to see how many slots it has and how many are occupied.
Then go back to Sequencer RPPR mode and look at your RPPR user pattern bank to see how many slits you have in there and how many are filled with patterns.

Also, length of pattern makes a difference in sequencer, even if it is a mere 4 bars you are working with. Kronos has setting to make a pattern hold a minimal amount of measure and a maximum amount. Both extremes are impressive and make a lot of flexibility. So if your pattern length is set to 1 measure or two measures, you will have no luck slotting a 4 bar pattern in the user slot.
Even the entire song itself, has a setting for it to be as long as a single measure or as long as it takes to play for hours.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be sure you have the right pattern length set for user patterns.
[It will not accept four bars if not set to accept 4 bars of length.]

~~~~~~~~Parameter guide excerpt page 657~~~~~~~

Pattern Parameter
This command specifies the number of measures and the time signature of the selected pattern.
1. Use Pattern and Pattern Select to specify the pattern.
2. Select “Pattern Parameter” to open the dialog box.
3. In Length, specify the number of measures in the pattern.
4. In Meter, specify the time signature of the pattern.
However, this time signature is only temporary, and when you “put” or “copy” the pattern in a track of a song, the pattern will play according to the time signature of that measure.
5. To execute the Pattern Parameter settings, press the OK button. To cancel, press the Cancel button.
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b1gb1rd



Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:35 am    Post subject: Kronos II - not enough drum track patterns available Reply with quote

thanks for your reply.

The pointer that rppr patterns are different than user drum patterns helped - I didn't understand that - that is why my user pattern showed up in rppr for my song, but not on the user drum patterns list.

I decided to experiment a bit - I restarted the kronos, and loaded a single song only - then in sequence mode / RPPR tab - I set my pattern parameter to 4 bars. The song has 4 bars of drum midi on track 1. When I selected Get from Midi Track I again see the message "Not enough drum patterns available"

This makes me think there is something wrong with my sequence setup. I tried deleting measures from measure 5 onwards for all tracks in the sequence - then tried again - same result. Now this is with only one song loaded - all other songs are initialized, and there are no User patterns set.

I then loaded a different song - now there are 2 sequences - the 2nd sequence allowed me to save an RPPR user pattern - Get from midi, and from there create a user drum pattern - Convert to Drum Track Pattern

So it looks to me it is something about my source or target sequence that is causing the error message.....

My normal workflow is to open a midi file with the drum pattern on it into a new song, then go to my target song in the track edit tab and copy measure from the new song to grab the drum midi to a track in the target seq.

As an aside - I was considering changing my approach to the goal of having 100+ sequences with individual 4 bar drum patterns to using the drum track with user drum patterns instead - but I don't see an option to assign the footswitch to turn the drum track off and on by footswitch, and I need that. Also I don't like the fact the drum track starts on key press rather than footswitch - maybe you have some insight for me here...

I would really like to understand the root cause of the Not enough drum patterns available.....

thanks again for considering my problem

B
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos II - not enough drum track patterns available Reply with quote

b1gb1rd wrote:
I don't see an option to assign the footswitch to turn the drum track off and on by footswitch, and I need that. Also I don't like the fact the drum track starts on key press rather than footswitch - maybe you have some insight for me here...


You can assign a keyboard key to one of the PADs. Pressing that PAD will then trigger the drum track. To trigger that pad with your foot instead of physically pressing the onscreen PAD, go to GLOBAL mode Controllers/Controllers tab. There you can assign the footswitch to trigger a PAD.

The last option under Foot Switch Assign is Drum Track ON/OFF. Unfortunately it looks like the footswitch can only be assigned to either toggle the drum track or trigger a pad, not both.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only other thing i can think to check, is that you have the right track selected when you do your 4 bar midi track put to RPPR user pattern with parameter setting at 4 bars length.
Maybe the Song that did not work, was not set to the 4 bar track and thus the user pattern move was coming from another track with more than 4 bars.
Also the midi track is based on midi channel setting, so the target track midi channel setting probably needs to be an isolated channel that is not shared between two or more tracks that would then try to put all their data into a user pattern at the same time and crowd it out.

At least the second song worked to make user patterns and then to user drum track and that is why i am not suspecting the problem is Low amount of available RAM.
I would compare the track parameters of both songs, maybe start with midi channel settings in track parameters and also see which tracks are selected or highlighted when you try to make a user RPPR pattern. In the song’s main page, track select is there and in RPPR setup, track select is involved there.
If you don’t pay attention to that, you could easily end up entering that a user pattern be made from a track you did not intend and a track that does not have the length trimmed down enough to fit the user pattern.

I recall mention of some kind of special cache of data that sequencer works with, and how sometimes its contents can cause holdups, but i am not sure the details or if it applies to RPPR user patterns. I will browse the parameter guide for any small details i can find about it. Stuff like that usually shows up in bold print warning at the end of a paragraph or section in parameter guide.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drum track can link to Karma, but i am not sure if that means Karma start/stop and trigger setups can control drum track start stop.
But with the way Karma is, you never know until you dig in and try things.
If you are able to make a Karma setup happen, then maybe look into the “link to drum track” setting and any setups from there that can influence the drum track trigger.

I use an external drum machine with its own start and stop that can be set to its own foot pedal, which then Midi ports to and from Kronos where i have Karma also involved. I manually start karma by note key but i have it midi clock synced to the drum machine to tighten up any gap in the beat timing from my fingers, and when i use drum machine pedal to stop the drum machine pattern play, it also stops Karma. And i engaged all the “sync” and “link” settings i could for being sure it works the way it does.
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b1gb1rd



Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Kronos II - not enough drum track patterns available Reply with quote

Thanks again for your help

Psionic311 - you're right - I didn't realize there are multiple pages of footswitch assignments - thanks

19naia - I'll dig in to comparing the 2 songs and let you know if I find the problem

B
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b1gb1rd



Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:59 pm    Post subject: Kronos II - not enough drum track patterns available Reply with quote

Hmm still struggling with this..
The actual message is 'Not enough Drum Track pattern locations available.'

I compared each tab of the seq where I am able to "get from midi track" on the rppr tab, to the ones where I am blocked by the error message. - I could see no differences.

I am able to "get from midi track" into other seq if I select the track in the song that is OK

I then thought, it might be the midi data that is causing the problem, so I went into the song that is blocked by the error message, deleted the drum track on the track edit tab, went to RPPR tab and selected a preset drum track, and put the data to midi track.

I changed the pattern on the RPPR tab to an empty user pattern, set the pattern length and selected get from midi track at bar 1 of the current song - same error message. If instead I get from midi track at bar 1 of the song that is OK - I successfully create the user pattern - no error....

To summarize
- seq 1 - midi data can be successfully put to a user pattern in RPPR
Seq 2 - get error message when I put midi to a user pattern
Seq 3 - get midi data from Seq2 bar 1 to user pattern fails with error
Seq 3 - get midi data from Seq 1 bar 1 to user pattern succeeds
Replace the midi data in seq 2 with midi from preset pattern - same behavior as above.

I get the same error when trying to copy midi data in track edit tab from seq 2 using copy measure to new initialized seq 5

I am wondering what could be wrong with my seq 2 - I have many songs in this condition. It impacts my standard workflow.... load midi file to new seq, then copy measure to my target song that is set up with keysplits, sounds, drum channel effects etc, appropriate for the song.

Help?
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b1gb1rd



Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Kronos II - not enough drum track patterns available Reply with quote

On further thought - I realize this error began to appear after creating about 70 Sequences.

It now shows up consistently after I load the Korg factory preload files, inititalize the Seqs then load a single seq.

This makes me think the error message may be responding to some issue I've introduced to the user banks of the KSC - it appears these are not refreshed when I load the factory preload files. Any thoughts about how to return these to factory state?
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19naia
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked through the section of parameter guide for RPPR and nothing clued in for me about your situation.

~~~~~~~Page 591 parameter guide.~~~~~~~
Sequencer P5: Pattern/RPPR
On the KRONOS you can use preset patterns P00–155, and user patterns U00–99.
Preset patterns provide patterns that are suitable for drum tracks, and can be selected from any song.
One hundred user patterns are provided for each song; you can create and store your own patterns in these.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I noticed it said RPPR accesses both user patterns and preset patterns.
Same with drum track, using presets and user patterns.
If the system is somehow able to to allow confusion between user and preset patterns, it would cause scenarios for error messages perpetually declaring not enough space to store patterns.
I don’t have kronos with me and won’t be near it for months to come.
So i cannot check for myself to see if kronos system somehow allows confusion between preset and user pattern designations while trying to create or save a user pattern.

That is all i can possibly think of and is just a guess, checking to see you have user pattern designated in every possible place that it should be designated instead of preset pattern designated.
And this may not even matter if the system does not allow such confusion anyway. But i have no way of knowing for myself right now.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, honestly, I'm a little confused after reading through everything. But, if you're getting the Not enough Drum Track pattern locations available error message, this means that you have exceeded your limit of 1000 drum track patterns. Keep in mind that user drum track patterns are available in all modes, combi, program, seq. So for the sake of my understanding at least, let's try to simplify and confirm that this is the case.

Choose any program in Program mode.

Go to the Basic/Vector > Drum Track screen
.
At the top left of the screen, change the Pattern from Preset to User.

The drum track can now use patterns from the user drum track pattern bank. We should be able to see if the patterns are full here, so touch on the pattern select and scroll through to see if there are indeed drum track patterns all the way up to 999.

Presumably there will be names for the patterns, but I suppose it's possible there might not be names for them but still have data. So if they all read InitDrumPattern or something similar, that should mean they are empty. However, you can turn on the drum track to see if anything is playing on a user pattern just to check. If you hear drums playing, there is data in the pattern.

Let me know what you see in the user drum track pattern bank. Is it full of user patterns or is it genuinely empty?
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19naia
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that HardSync brings that up, it reminds me that RPPR patterns can contain more than midi note data.
I am not sure what is possible when loading external midi files, but i would not be surprised if external midi files loaded contain sysEx and control data that end up putting data into strange places in strange ways.

And that RPPR can record sysEx and control data from sequencer without any note data and play that back silently, and then have that pattern put to user drum track and end up being silent content in drum track user pattern.

There was a comment about erasing or deleting all patterns, but i am not sure if deleting was done to all RPPR pattern slots and all Drum track user pattern slots. Or just one or the other.

A clean slate all around for drum track user pattern slots and RPPR user pattern slots seems the test to prove it is not related to hidden user pattern content.
After that, if the problem stays, it could be a glitch or even the midi data being brought into Kronos from external sources, maybe containing complicated sysEx and control data that is not right for Kronos system.

Maybe a good test would be to just work with local midi data... maybe start with clean user pattern slate all across the board, then record a Karma pattern into the midi track of the problem song and then make an RPPR pattern of it and then make that into a user drum track and see if it works with the midi data that is native to Kronos. If that works, then it is a problem of the external sourced data.
RPPR is made to record all sequencer data like SysEx and control data, which can allow very complicated data in from external sequencers like DAWs that can do all kinds of SysEx and control tasks that Kronos system does not handle.
And even then, i doubt what i mentioned even matters in this case where it works in one song but not the other.
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