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Steinway for Kross

 
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Valito19



Joined: 02 Aug 2019
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:58 pm    Post subject: Steinway for Kross Reply with quote

Hello everybody:

I created this topic because I couldn't find specific help in any thread. The thing is, I'm about to sell my Kross but the potential buyer told me he doesn't really like the piano sounds. He's quite into classical music and so I thought it'd be possible to find some samples of classic pianos and load them onto the Kross.
So far, I've been unsuccessful, I searched but didn't find samples of Steinway, say, or Baldwin or any other traditional pianos specifically fro Kross.
Does any of you know where I can find them? If they're for Krome, would they be compatible? Or if it is possible to convert them to .PCG?

Thanks in advance, Valentina.
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OpAmp
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Joined: 07 Jun 2013
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Location: Brussels, BE

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi.

For Kross 1: little chance to get that working. There are some posts where they explain a method to load additional multisamples, but for me it did not work out for some reason with the provided lib files. It is anyway not going to be with a .pcg file. Apart from that, the samples need to be really limited in size. So the Steinway sample will still sound far away from a Steinway. I think someone really into classical music should look for something else than a keyboard like the Kross. Rather a digital piano I would say.

For Kross 2: there are more possibilities, but I don't own one, so I'm not the right person to comment that.

Have fun.
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lidserter
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Joined: 23 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Valentina! PCG files includes data on programming the different programs and combination, and the very core of the sound are the multisamples that each program recalls.
Basically, a single sample of a single note in the piano at a single level (fortissimo i.e.) is stored as a .KSF file, Korg sample format. You can make it quite unrealistically with a single sample and let the engine invent the other keys and velocities. But is better to have more samples across the entire range. So lets say you sample every C of a piano, you then have 7 or 8 KSF. that are linked to its respective keys: this is a new korg file named KMP, korg multisample parameter. The large quality libraries use single samples for every key, and many layers of velocity (ppp pp mp f ff fff...) Because the sound of the same key is different when applying different force... So you then collect many kmp layers in another file, KSC korg sample collection.
So, you would get MUCH better results looking for ksc files, not pcg. Then after loading them you could edit an actual kross program and select the new multisamples. Pcg are specific for each korg model, but ksc are universal files for any korg.

Regards,
JJ
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lidserter
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh! I was talking about Kross 2, Kross 1 cannot load ksc files.

EDIT:
In the case of Kross 2, you can load some of the KSC from this link:

http://newsampleskorgkronos.blogspot.com/2016/10/steinway-vintage-d.html?m=1

Steinway Vintage D

This beautiful piano has an unique sound and is a perfect complement for the Kronos users.
The samples are taken from a 1920 Steinway & Sons piano. The piano was sampled in 13 velocity layers for a smooth sound transition. Each 88 note was sampled in 24 bits, for a total of 1144 multisamples and a total of 4,75GB compressed in only 460Mb!!! The library is quite large and was made of several KSC but in virtual memory only takes less than 110 Mbs of memory ram.

This Piano is free for users of Korg Kronos, and was made by Samplerbeast.
For personal use only, no redistribution.
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Korg Kross 2 61, Korg microStation, Korg monologue, Alesis Vortex wireless v1, CME Xkey 25, Peak FCB8N, JBL LSR305 monitors, Jackson DK2S, Washburn X series, Lag Tramontane, ENGL e530, TC electronic G-Major II, Rocktron Velocity 300, 2x12" Celestion V30s cabinet.
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OpAmp
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi lidserter,

Nice Steinway KSC file. It is originally intended for the Kronos. I'm doubting that you can use it on a Kross2, simply because it may be way too large.

Did you actually try it yourself? I saw you have a Kross2.
Or did you have to do something special? like selecting less velocity layers, share one sample over several notes, ... I'm interested to know that.

Bye.
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lidserter
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite large once extracted, between 4-5 GB. My original idea was to load just 3 layers of the 11 available. The sounds were so deeply sampled that a single layer takes between 130-200 MB, but we have 128 MB. So i tried with success to import single samples, KSF, and they worked. So we can create a drumkit sample by sample, and for each key make use of the 4 layers available on kross, making some compromise by taking samples out and use 4 samples per octave... That should work
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Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the person buying the Kross happens to own an iPhone or iPad, he can find a wide range of quality pianos there. The Kross has excellent facilities for incorporating external sounds into its combis, so integrating iPhone/iPad sounds into the setup can work well. In fact, that's a Kross strength, as its MIDI capabilities far exceed those of its typical competitors from Roland or Yamaha.

Otherwise, while as discussed above there may be ways to get new samples into your Kross, that facility is somewhat limited/complicated, and piano sounds in particular are some of the toughest to deal with besides. So I would not suggest anyone buy a Kross with the intent of "improving" its sounds via that method.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lidserter wrote:
Oh! I was talking about Kross 2, Kross 1 cannot load ksc files.

It is confusing, as Korg just calls them both "Kross" (seemingly taking a cue from Apple, who ridiculously has lots of models all called "iPad' or "Macbook Pro" etc., so there's often confusion about just what one has). In this case, we don't know which Kross the OP has.

In this case, the original Kross did not officially have a way to load custom samples, but a minimal ability to do it was discovered and there's a utility to use it, though it is not a feature supported by Korg. (See for example, http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=702441&sid=904eecf8777f08d52ee8e40cee47c161 )

The Kross 2 was officially announced as having extra sample memory into which you'd be able to add new Korg libraries, but they never came out with any such libraries. Then there was an update that allowed you to use that space for custom samples, but those custom samples have to be in Korg's format, so you have to look for stuff that was small enough to fit, but made for Kronos/M3/Triton etc. (or have one of those boards yourself, then you could do your own sampling).

If you must do this, Chicken Systems has "Korg Creator" and translator software to let you create/convert samples on your computer to get them into Korg's format. Complicated, though. It doesn't help that the documentation is poor (numerous typos, and presumably written by a non-native English speaker). But you can check it out at http://www.chickensys.com/support/software/korgcreator/documentation/

But if you want to load in new/custom keyboard-playable samples, I think you're better off with other boards. In a similar price range, Roland Juno DS and Casio MZ-X both come with factory-provided software specifically designed to let you manage your custom samples in their boards. They both let you map standard wav files, and I believe the Roland also supports standard soundfonts.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Steinway for Kross Reply with quote

Valito19 wrote:
I searched but didn't find samples of Steinway, say, or Baldwin or any other traditional pianos specifically fro Kross.

p.s. -- there's a good chance that the piano in the Kross already was sampled from a Steinway, Korg has used Steinway samples in a number of boards. It is certainly sampled from some "traditional piano".
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OpAmp
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Location: Brussels, BE

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Scott and Lidserter,

Thanks for the elaborated explanations.
I think I can conclude for Kross 2: it is possible to extend the soundset but it is still a hassle. For Kross 1, it is a no go.

If the original poster has a Kross 2, she can give it a try. Personally I would not buy that board even if the piano sounds better after the upgrade of the sampleset. It is something that can not be restored via a factory reset... There was recently a post of someone with a special edition of Kross 2, with custom user programs and so on. They were gone after the reset...

Have fun
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microKORGXL, Kaossilator Pro, monotribe, SQ-1, volca fm, Kross 88 BK
Alesis SR18, Akai Miniak, Fender Strat, Line 6 Spider II 112, Zoom MS-50G
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lidserter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that post too! Its unacceptable. Korg should offer this as a system upgrade, with the ksc and pcg file involved. Not only for the Kross 2 special owners but also for original Kross 2 users who were promised "optional libraries" decades ago...
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Valito19



Joined: 02 Aug 2019
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:49 am    Post subject: Thanks! Reply with quote

Hello everybody, thank you all for your kind replies, I have a Korg 1 and I'm seeing it's definitely quite complicated to load samples to it.

Thank you anyway!
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