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Volca headphone out
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ShoNuff
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Joined: 27 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Volca headphone out Reply with quote

volca outputs are labelled as 'headphone' output.
so the signal is on both Left and Right, whether it's a mono output or stereo.

question: are the mono volca full 100% signal on both sides? or is it 50/50?
is the signal boosted, as with a headphone amp output? or does the output detect is there's a line input at the other end? (and output line level)

reason for the question: this eats a lot of mixer inputs. i was thinking of summing both sides, whether mono or stereo, to a single mono line level output. eg: have resistors on both sides, and make a summing cable - or in fact a summing box, for multiple volcas: minijack stereo to 2x RCA, then the summing circuit, and 1/4" jack ouputs. thus avoiding many adapter plugs. a little conversion box.

any thoughts?
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LM
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Volca Bass, which is mono, has its output signal split and going into two separate boosting amps internally, before the headphone jack. I suppose it's the same with all the other mono Volcas. I just use a cable with an 1/8" TRS at one end and two RCA at the other, leaving one of the RCA disconnected when plugging into the mixer.
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ShoNuff
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LM wrote:
The Volca Bass, which is mono, has its output signal split and going into two separate boosting amps internally, before the headphone jack. I suppose it's the same with all the other mono Volcas. I just use a cable with an 1/8" TRS at one end and two RCA at the other, leaving one of the RCA disconnected when plugging into the mixer.


what i'm wondering about is, is it 50% per side? how can you get a better SNR?
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synthpeter
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Joined: 25 Jun 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShoNuff wrote:
LM wrote:
The Volca Bass, which is mono, has its output signal split and going into two separate boosting amps internally, before the headphone jack. I suppose it's the same with all the other mono Volcas. I just use a cable with an 1/8" TRS at one end and two RCA at the other, leaving one of the RCA disconnected when plugging into the mixer.


what i'm wondering about is, is it 50% per side? how can you get a better SNR?

According to the schematics, left and right are in phase. So there could be some advantage to summing them, though that's probably limited to the noise introduced by the dual opamp driving the headphone out.
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ShoNuff
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthpeter wrote:

According to the schematics, left and right are in phase. So there could be some advantage to summing them, though that's probably limited to the noise introduced by the dual opamp driving the headphone out.


so the correct way is just to use one side?
(or alternatively, we have one 'dry' side, and another output to send to an FX etc.)
and you turn it up to get more level, and get the noise anyway? Smile
( you mean the Bass? - or do you have schematics for others? )
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synthpeter
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShoNuff wrote:
synthpeter wrote:

According to the schematics, left and right are in phase. So there could be some advantage to summing them, though that's probably limited to the noise introduced by the dual opamp driving the headphone out.


so the correct way is just to use one side?
(or alternatively, we have one 'dry' side, and another output to send to an FX etc.)
and you turn it up to get more level, and get the noise anyway? Smile
( you mean the Bass? - or do you have schematics for others? )

Correct, my comment was for the Bass, which is mono but has the same circuit left and right. So, you can indeed use one side for dry, and send the other one into FX.

Alternatively, you could use a averaging circuit (e.g. two resistors in series between left and right, and using the mid-point as an output) and get an output that's possibly a little better than either left or right alone. This will slightly reduce the noise introduced by the dual opamp that drives the headphone.

As far as turning up the level is concerned, upping that will elevate the audio signal above the noise floor obviously, but at the same time amplify the noise caused by the rest of the circuit. It's a balancing act to get the best out of the device, and may even differ for every individual Volca.

By the way, the Bass service manual with the diagrams can be found here: http://www.ksadhu.niezba.org/sajty/korg_volca_bass_sm.pdf
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ShoNuff
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthpeter wrote:

Correct, my comment was for the Bass, which is mono but has the same circuit left and right. So, you can indeed use one side for dry, and send the other one into FX.

Alternatively, you could use a averaging circuit (e.g. two resistors in series between left and right, and using the mid-point as an output) and get an output that's possibly a little better than either left or right alone. This will slightly reduce the noise introduced by the dual opamp that drives the headphone.

As far as turning up the level is concerned, upping that will elevate the audio signal above the noise floor obviously, but at the same time amplify the noise caused by the rest of the circuit. It's a balancing act to get the best out of the device, and may even differ for every individual Volca.

By the way, the Bass service manual with the diagrams can be found here: http://www.ksadhu.niezba.org/sajty/korg_volca_bass_sm.pdf


yup i have that schematic - shame the others are not available... (but i cannot really read them much)

i see 470 ohms as the values for each input resistor. don't think i have any of those in my electrojunk box. anything else i can use? do i also need a 10k resistor between the two signal lines? (looking at the Ranes site diagrams)

i'm not that bothered about the noisefloor. some noise is to be expected, with lots of gear. i was thinking more about a simple way to get from minijack stereo to 1/4" jack on mixer. plus, i got some strange results with one of my line mixers- because i was being a smartarse using a mono-mini to regular 1/4" mono, into what must be a balanced input (? or something like that)
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synthpeter
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShoNuff wrote:
synthpeter wrote:

Correct, my comment was for the Bass, which is mono but has the same circuit left and right. So, you can indeed use one side for dry, and send the other one into FX.

Alternatively, you could use a averaging circuit (e.g. two resistors in series between left and right, and using the mid-point as an output) and get an output that's possibly a little better than either left or right alone. This will slightly reduce the noise introduced by the dual opamp that drives the headphone.

As far as turning up the level is concerned, upping that will elevate the audio signal above the noise floor obviously, but at the same time amplify the noise caused by the rest of the circuit. It's a balancing act to get the best out of the device, and may even differ for every individual Volca.

By the way, the Bass service manual with the diagrams can be found here: http://www.ksadhu.niezba.org/sajty/korg_volca_bass_sm.pdf


yup i have that schematic - shame the others are not available... (but i cannot really read them much)

i see 470 ohms as the values for each input resistor. don't think i have any of those in my electrojunk box. anything else i can use? do i also need a 10k resistor between the two signal lines? (looking at the Ranes site diagrams)

i'm not that bothered about the noisefloor. some noise is to be expected, with lots of gear. i was thinking more about a simple way to get from minijack stereo to 1/4" jack on mixer. plus, i got some strange results with one of my line mixers- because i was being a smartarse using a mono-mini to regular 1/4" mono, into what must be a balanced input (? or something like that)

To go from a 1/8" stereo output to a 1/4" mono input, you need something like this: https://www.showtec-dap-audio.nl/product/dap-audio-xga11-jack-m-mono-mini-jack-f/

This is a complete solution that doesn't require soldering yourself..
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ShoNuff
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthpeter wrote:

To go from a 1/8" stereo output to a 1/4" mono input, you need something like this: https://www.showtec-dap-audio.nl/product/dap-audio-xga11-jack-m-mono-mini-jack-f/

This is a complete solution that doesn't require soldering yourself..


yes have some of those, a bit shorter in fact. keeping those for CV connections atm.
got cables'n'stuff coming out of my ears Smile
and i don't mind a bit of soldering. it occured to me that i have a load of stereo mini to 2x RCA's and can use those, so i knocked up a little box out of an old ext.hard drive case and some RCA female pairs salvaged from an old mixer, and have plans for that. either as a kind of multi adapter to a patchbay or the mixer, as jack, or for merging pairs. not sure yet but it looks pretty (and is about the size of a volca). reclaimed a load of jack sockets there as well. gratuitous/pointless project Smile but might be able to do something useful with it.
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Irishluck



Joined: 18 Jan 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve tried several different methods for getting the audio from my Bass and Sample to my mixer. Sample is in stereo unlike the bass. I made a stand to hold both units and hardwired a 1/8”’trs male for the headphone jack and soldered it to a 1/4” female output jack on the stand I made. Putting the required resistors in place on the jack. So I could just grab a regular guitar cable and plug it into that and run it straight to my mixer. Then I decided to try a different method. I got rid of the summing jacks and replaced them with two separate 1/4” jacks for each unit. One for right and left for both units. So I’ll run right and left from the Sample to a stereo channel on my mixer and just run one from the bass to a mono channel on the mixer. I’ve noticed the mono channel for the bass has more gain than the stereo channel for the Sample. But it sounds great. In my opinion it sounds better than the summed outputs. Makes it easier to do different things with the outputs and not have to use a bunch of adapters too. Just leave the dedicated 1/8” trs into the headphone jack and do whatever I need to with the two 1/4” tr output jacks.
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synthpeter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irishluck wrote:
... In my opinion it sounds better than the summed outputs...

That makes sense, as a resistive summing circuit is a bit of a misnomer; a resistive summing circuit is actually more like an averaging circuit.

For a stereo signal, the part of the signal that is common to left and right remains as is, but the differences between left and common and right and common are divided by 2. That effectively removes some dynamics.

So, you can save a channel on your mixer (like the OP intended), but that can come at a sound quality loss..
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ShoNuff
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

right, so you're only dropping your level summing it to mono anyway?
is that it? so the level is as high as you need it, on both sides?
no problem then. just use one side. with the other available for parellel processing, if need be.
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Irishluck



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya, the levels are enough to bring my mixer beyond clipping. There’s plenty of volume and enough left over to keep it sounding clear. I was a bit surprised since they seemed to have a low output, but anything would sound weak going through that built-in toy speaker. The bass output is noticeably higher any way I tried it. I even tried 1/8” stereo to XLR on the mixer. I think that was the clearest and most powerful of everything I tried. But having dual XLRs for the Sample isn’t practical since it would take two mixer channels and you’d be having to adjust right and left separately and that would be more hassle than it’s worth. If it were the Sample that had a stronger output I’d use the XLR for the Bass and two 1/4” on a stereo channel for the Samole and they would have a closer output to each other. My guess is the XLR channel runs through the mixers mic preamp. So if you’re only using one Volca to the mixer you might try that too. The tip and ring go to pin 2 and pins 1 and 3 go to the shield and are bridged, and this is a Hosa cable I used, one of the few of mine I didn’t cobble together. Hope that helped a little.
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synthpeter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShoNuff wrote:
right, so you're only dropping your level summing it to mono anyway?
is that it? so the level is as high as you need it, on both sides?
no problem then. just use one side. with the other available for parellel processing, if need be.


With stereo, you'll most often have the lower frequencies (bass) in the middle, which means they have the same volume left and right. The left/right separation is mostly in the higher frequencies. So the left channel will have left high frequency content plus bass, the right channel will have right high frequency content plus bass.

Averaging both will leave you with bass plus half left high and half right high frequency content; in other words, lower frequencies will be as they were, but the higher frequency content will have less emphasis.
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ShoNuff
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthpeter wrote:
ShoNuff wrote:
right, so you're only dropping your level summing it to mono anyway?
is that it? so the level is as high as you need it, on both sides?
no problem then. just use one side. with the other available for parellel processing, if need be.


With stereo, you'll most often have the lower frequencies (bass) in the middle, which means they have the same volume left and right. The left/right separation is mostly in the higher frequencies. So the left channel will have left high frequency content plus bass, the right channel will have right high frequency content plus bass.

Averaging both will leave you with bass plus half left high and half right high frequency content; in other words, lower frequencies will be as they were, but the higher frequency content will have less emphasis.


ah yeh so this doesn't actually make any difference with a volca Bass mono signal then though, does it? was thinking more about getting optimum level eg: best signal/noise.

i think the Keys can have a mono out direct from the VCA, bypassing the digital delay. maybe a direct mono out exists on the Bass pcb.

i'm being 'ocd' about leaving an unconnected output hanging. have sent both sides to their own channel, don't recall if there was a big difference. s'pose one should embrace it as a parallel 'send' Smile
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