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My Pa700 Froze...
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Musicwithharry
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Location: Anamosa, IA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: My Pa700 Froze... Reply with quote

When playing a Christmas party at a nursing home yesterday, my Pa700 froze twice.

The first time, it powered itself down and I had to turn it back on. I was scrolling through MP3 songs on the MicroSD card I inserted months ago that has otherwise been working fine. It worked after it rebooted. I down for about a minute or so while the machine rebooted.

The second time, I was using my iPhone, plugged into the Line-In jacks and not even playing the keyboard. The keyboard made a buzzing noise and the screen was scrambled; pixelated with the RGB colors and the keyboard was completely dead. I could not even turn it off with the power button. I had to unplug it, wait a few seconds, and turn it on again. It worked flawlessly for the rest of the gig. It also worked on the following gig about an hour later, where I played the keyboard for over an hour. I did not use Song mode or play anything through the input jacks; I was in style mode the whole time.

During the second freeze, I decided to do a factory restore and then did a full resource restore of my existing data. I noticed a couple of the styles were the wrong tempo and the Pad selections I had were wrong. This was done after the resource restore.

Has anyone else had this issue with their Pa700?

I am somewhat afraid to use it now, but maybe it was just scrambled data. I do use my arranger for up to 5 jobs a day and have since I got it in September 2017. It has reset itself one other time in the past but has worked flawlessly since.

During transport, I have it in its soft-shell wheeled case in the back seat of my 1999 Lincoln Town Car (the reason I list the car is because the back seat fully holds the entire case without crunching either end between the back doors. I also have a 2.1 speaker system from Harbinger (M350) that I put in front of the Pa700 in its case for the trip. The weather is cold here and I did not want keep the speaker system in the trunk for the out of town gig.

It is my understanding the Flash drives, SD cards and SSD drives are not affected by speaker magnets, like the old mechanical hard drives and floppy drive were. You could not place a speaker next to a floppy or hard drive before, because it could scramble the data contained on the drive or floppy.

I am trying to isolate what may be the issue. I have to go out and play again next Monday and Tuesday out of town and wonder if the unit is going to reset itself again during those performances...

There is nothing loose on the side of the machine; I moved it around to check.

This certainly speeds up my need to get a backup unit and I will have to get another Pa700 next month to make sure I have a good backup unit, if this one needs to go in for repair.

Any ideas or suggestions? I am going to play with it this weekend in the studio and maybe try to find another way to do a COMPLETE reset/restore of the unit beyond the factory reset and resource restore. Any suggestions are welcome. I am hoping that it is just scrambled data, but I am not sure at this point.

I am also going to ping Korg about this and see what they have to say...

Grace,
Harry
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry,
Ouch! The uncertainty is almost as bad as the problem itself.

The only thing that springs to mind is the latest OS update. I've heard several people talk about problems they've had after the update.

While troubleshooting whatever is at hand, I've been surprised time and time again that something I'd never suspect or had already ruled out was indeed the culprit. And of course there's the clusterfunk of SEVERAL things going wrong at once.

You probably have read most if not all the threads on this part of the forum, and many of the Pa4X. That'd be my point of research, check the problems others have had.

I see you're demonstrating another reason to live in Iowa?. You'd probably never have a Lincoln Town Car in SF area!

May the tech gods watch over you!
Randy
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disconcerting.

I have not experienced any issues with my 700 in the 27 months I have owned it but it has not been used anywhere near as much as yours and I assume that yours has far more custom resources saved within it.

If you check out the 4X freezing threads in that section you may find some similarities.
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biggles wrote:
Disconcerting.

I have not experienced any issues with my 700 in the 27 months I have owned it but it has not been used anywhere near as much as yours and I assume that yours has far more custom resources saved within it.

If you check out the 4X freezing threads in that section you may find some similarities.


I remember reading through those threads about the 4X freezing. It kind of scared me a bit, knowing that I had a lot of custom resources. I would hate to have to normalize my machine into more of a generic state just to be able to use it.

As far as custom resources, I have different styles that I have downloaded, copied and renamed existing factory styles with new names, keyboard sets, pads, etc... so it serves me better. I also have the Songbook pointing to my custom MP3 songs (located on the MicroSD card I inserted) so I can play over them live.

I have a lot of custom keyboard sets I made, and I also have Reuben's Yamaha C5 piano sample pack in there.

One would think that they can have the freedom to customize their machine the way they see fit (within the limits of the machine itself) in order to be productive.

Grace,
Harry
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randelph wrote:
Harry,
Ouch! The uncertainty is almost as bad as the problem itself.

The only thing that springs to mind is the latest OS update. I've heard several people talk about problems they've had after the update.

While troubleshooting whatever is at hand, I've been surprised time and time again that something I'd never suspect or had already ruled out was indeed the culprit. And of course there's the clusterfunk of SEVERAL things going wrong at once.

You probably have read most if not all the threads on this part of the forum, and many of the Pa4X. That'd be my point of research, check the problems others have had.

I see you're demonstrating another reason to live in Iowa?. You'd probably never have a Lincoln Town Car in SF area!

May the tech gods watch over you!
Randy


Randy,
I updated to OS 1.4 months ago and it never gave me an issue until yesterday Smile Maybe doing a factory reset and resource restore will do the trick, at least for another couple of years....who knows Smile

I read the threads for the 4X when they were being posted and it made me a bit queasy, thinking it could happen to other models...

With regard to the Lincoln, I would probably get A LOT of negative stares driving that big of a car (except for the big SUVs) anywhere in California these days Smile I love the ride and it holds A LOT of gear when I need it to. Plus, it is nice to drive up to a place and get out of a Lincoln instead of a Taurus, Cruze, or anything else.

I bought it because it was a Lincoln, but I also bought it because I know that it is mainly a livery type vehicle and they last for hundreds of thousands of miles (if cared for appropriately). My last big car was a 1993 Chevy Caprice (owned it for 9 years) and I traded it for the Lincoln. The Caprice had 234,000 miles when I traded it, so I use them quite a lot. I love the Lincoln's setup so much that I got a 2003 Mercury Grand Marquis for my wife. They share the same platform, engine, tranny, etc...the Lincoln just has a bigger body and more goodies to make it more comfy...

Here is a link to the Caprice - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=429349597560603&set=pcb.429352577560305&type=3&theater

Here is a link to the Lincoln - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=429353724226857&set=p.429353724226857&type=3&theater

I may be a bit delayed in getting my Styles over to you as a result of what happened yesterday. I do not want to send potentially corrupt data over to you (if that is what is causing it). If anything, I will have it worked out and you will be ready for Christmas 2020 Smile

Grace,
Harry
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NativeAngels
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Pa700 froze once before mid performance. I think you press shift and start if my memory servers me correctly.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Pa700 frozen Reply with quote

Musicwithharry wrote:
... read the threads for the 4X when they were being posted and it made me a bit queasy, thinking it could happen to other models... .... I do not want to send potentially corrupt data ...


Nobody wants that, but it always can happen - even corruption of the data in the eMMC memory can occur due to a problem when installing a system package file.

So loading user data is always the risk of the user but without the intention of the creator.

Sent you a PM.
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Pa700 frozen Reply with quote

siebenhirter wrote:
Musicwithharry wrote:
... read the threads for the 4X when they were being posted and it made me a bit queasy, thinking it could happen to other models... .... I do not want to send potentially corrupt data ...


Nobody wants that, but it always can happen - even corruption of the data in the eMMC memory can occur due to a problem when installing a system package file.

So loading user data is always the risk of the user but without the intention of the creator.

Sent you a PM.


I got the PM, thank you. As soon as I read through all of it, I will send a reply. I will keep you informed of Korg's response to me. I did get an initial response from them, but it was what I expected from them("We've never heard of the PA700 having problems", etc...) so I asked a more technical question in my reply to them. I am still awaiting an answer from them (which I may not get, as it does involve tech stuff they usually would not reveal to the average consumer (or maybe even a sales person).

I did a factory reset, updated the OS to 1.4 again, and then loaded my data. I spent some time on the board on Friday and did not notice any problems...

Time will tell if it worked or not. If any of my user data IS corrupt, then there is little I can do to fix it.

What I have noticed is that sometimes, on a couple of styles, the pad settings and tempo get mixed up. Sometimes the arranger parts are different volumes too. I am not sure why this happens, other than the data is getting scrambled somehow.

One of the questions I asked Korg the second time was whether or not the SSD and/or flash/MicroSD cards can have their data scrambled when placed next to a magnet (as like on a speaker). My understanding, after being in IT for so many years, that this doea not happen as much (or at all) like it used to with the older HDD and Floppy Drives. I do not place my PA700 directly near a speaker or anything, but with the colder winters here in Iowa, I do put my subwoofer in the back seat, behind my driver's seat, and the PA700 is in its case on the back seat. Maybe something does happen during that time, but I am not sure...

Grace,
Harry
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BR
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Pa700 frozen Reply with quote

Musicwithharry wrote:
... I will keep you informed of Korg's response to me. I did get an initial response from them, but it was what I expected from them("We've never heard of the PA700 having problems", etc...) so I asked a more technical question in my reply to them.


What I have noticed is that sometimes, on a couple of styles, the pad settings and tempo get mixed up. Sometimes the arranger parts are different volumes too.

Grace,
Harry


Harry I have similar problem with my Pa1000, there is a post about it Here.
I am working on it by cleaning my customized set and not finished yet., will report back when I get a final result.

About Korg support, I've contacted them too first time but they told me to read the manual... Very Happy
Sorry to say that but the US Korg support is a joke... Very Happy
When I explained them in detail they said "We apologize for misunderstanding", that was it.

Hope your problem is not as complicated as mine and you could figure it out and continue working without frustration.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Pa700 frozen, Pa1000 frozen Reply with quote

BR wrote:
.... Sorry to say that but the US Korg support is a joke... Very Happy
When I explained them in detail they said "We apologize for misunderstanding", that was it.

Hope your problem is not as complicated as mine and you could figure it out and continue working without frustration...


--> www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=119091&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75
What Anthony says in thread "Restart again with OS 3.1" of Pa4x:
- only reset & format can ensure a real factory reset and this exists only in OS v2 full resources
- when SET was made in previous Pa models do not load set in ALL mode .... etc
- STY , PRF , PAD & MXP contents of a PCG are mostly suspected .... this won't be verified while importing and out of range values can lead to system crash or overall audio output distortion ....
- open SET file and load partially all resources of individual banks where you have the ability to see troubleshooting warnings and avoid loading "not Pa file" or missing samples MS
- the weird .. is that ..overflow values affect system settings are not cleared via MEDIA/Factory Restore , so as I suggested in present time users that still have the restart issue must load first OS v2.0 in "format" option then load OS v3.1 and never load again their old resources that caused that not even assign them in Direct SET mode
*
And what mentioned in thread "Serious problem with PA 1000":
- your issue is strictly your user STY file (Styles Bank) itself no matter of what other styles you will copy there ...
- in this bank there is one at least custom Style of older PaSeries with inappropriate code that crashes system !!!
- PA manager or any external software will never correct STY file code errors or missing samples references that will always migrate
in your newer Pa model and will cause issues like system freeze !
**
.... also applies to Pa1000 / 700.

Pa4x, Pa1000 and Pa700 use same technology and same family of software. But only for Pa4x OS2.0 - with space requirements of 3GB on USB-stick - a reset procedure exists.

That is no simple OS-Update-Version, but a complete package reset procedure to run intializing the whole machine with all its interfaces and applications.
That was necessary because each time a installation of a package can cause corruptions of data in the eMMC - these problems can only be fixed with a reset package that overwrites eMMC.

Searching www also for Pa1000 a Turkish homepage offers a two-part package for the Pa1000 system reset (Pa1000-Factory Reset v 1.01).

Regardless of whether many or few Pa1000 / 700 users are affected by such problems, I see Korg obliged to make this software available for the Pa1000 / 700 to download or to be sent of support.

Corrupt data are not imported from outside onto these devices, but it are the styles of other Korg models and even faulty samples of the Pa-1000 from the previous OS version, as well as Sets assembled with the Pa-manager, whereby this software was also advertised in Korg brochures!
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BR
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:19 am    Post subject: Re: Pa700 frozen, Pa1000 frozen Reply with quote

siebenhirter wrote:

That is no simple OS-Update-Version, but a complete package reset procedure to run intializing the whole machine with all its interfaces and applications.
That was necessary because each time a installation of a package can cause corruptions of data in the eMMC - these problems can only be fixed with a reset package that overwrites eMMC.

Searching www also for Pa1000 a Turkish homepage offers a two-part package for the Pa1000 system reset (Pa1000-Factory Reset v 1.01).

Regardless of whether many or few Pa1000 / 700 users are affected by such problems, I see Korg obliged to make this software available for the Pa1000 / 700 to download or to be sent of support.

Corrupt data are not imported from outside onto these devices, but it are the styles of other Korg models and even faulty samples of the Pa-1000 from the previous OS version, as well as Sets assembled with the Pa-manager, whereby this software was also advertised in Korg brochures!

Do you know or can you provide please a direct link for two-part package for the Pa1000 system reset?
Is it reliable and accurate? I mean can we trust the two-part package for the Pa1000 system reset?

Thanks
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Pa700 frozen, Pa1000 frozen Reply with quote

BR wrote:
..Do you know or can you provide please a direct link for two-part package for the Pa1000 system reset?
Is it reliable and accurate? I mean can we trust the two-part package for the Pa1000 system reset? ..


Because of your freezing Pa-Keyboards I searched the www, but as I do not need such reset-packages I do not know if it would be reliable and accurate:

https://trakyamuzik.net/konu/korg-pa-1000-factory-reset-dosyalari.45761/

According the translation, the user of that Turkish forum writes that it is an effective tool that hardly will be find on the Internet - these are original Korg files that he received from Korg to reset his keyboard to factory settings. After reading some lines of that binary files it really looks so.

Whether you can be sure that it will reset the Pa1000 reliably you better should inquire your local Korg support.
Your feedback about Korgs information would be interesting and also it would be interesting, why such tools are not published by Korg Support and are made available to all users who need them.
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BR
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks siebenhirter for the link.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject: Pa700 frozen, Pa1000 frozen Reply with quote

BR wrote:
.. for the link...


It may be wrong, but due to the previous postings (thread "serious problem with Pa1000") I suspect that a Pa1000 reset is not absolutely necessary. I share the opinion of Anthony Sharmman --> http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=119234&start=35

It is not necessary to start an extensive reset-package to initialize eMMC area because after factory restore your keyboard worked fine with its factory resources.
If keyboard frozzen each time after you intented to load again custom resources, better it is recommended
- try to find what data of them crashes system with inappropriate code
- try to heal all the detected sounds with warning messages (loading sound incomplete, some items are not found)
else it is to be feared you will get same issues again with your setfiles, also if reseting eMMC areas was successful.

With Pa4x Korg recommended cleaning user sample memory before an OS-reset, because failing to do so will prevent the new OS from loading.
It think it would be good to do that also with Pa1000, because we got no information how to deal with damaged samples produced with previous OS of Pa1000.
That was when overwriting an existing sample, other samples in memory could be damaged - it was a bug that should be fixed in OS 1.3.1.
*
As Anthony analyzed it mostly are faulty references that will lead loop effects and system freeze.
So we should not be surprised if custom sets with incompatiblity issues do not work properly in in newer OS of Pa-keyboards.
It is very rational that newer OS will examine resources references and that is why loading is very slower while loading partial resources.

Freezing OS on selecting a style, messing up STS and other weird things are caused by faulty code of musical data created by older PaSeries or corrupted after migrating.
STY / PRF / PCG files are checked by Pa-OS only by headers/identifier, but are not validated by their entire contents, so overflow parameter value can not be defined and can cause CPU loops that freeze system.

Header will change when files are exported, but main content and parameters will be the same as before, so its source is incompatible with newer OS.

OS allows Pa-files with ID of older PaSeries, but only concerns to factory or official resources, but not to custom files with unpredictable parameter values!

---> http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=119234&start=38
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duby2
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: pa Reply with quote

BR

tell us if you use the Pa1000-Factory Reset v 1.01
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