Korg Forums

[ThunderKeys]

Any thoughts on how to emulate a minimoog similar to Stevie Winwoods use in "While you see a chance"?

Would rather program it than sample it. Would you use AL-1? Any input would be much appreciated. Just a novice at the synth programming...
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We are the KORG! I am Fifth of Flatted Seventh.

[K is for Kronos]

Mike,

I know almost nothing about synth programming, so I do not know which engine you should use on the Kronos. However, if you have access to the June, 2006 issue of Keyboard Magazine, there is a great article by Mike Sigman on how to recreate this classic lead. I believe this was originally done on a Prophet 5. I also can not remember, but this may be found in Busch's Famous Synth sounds.


Bill

[jimknopf]

William Busch has made a nice Winwood "when you see a chance" sound in his very well done synth collection of famous synth sounds for the Kronos. It's sound no. 6 in the first bank. You find vol. 1 on his site and vol. 1&2 here:

http://www.kronoscopie.fr/famous-synth-sounds.html
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5

[Davd C. Polich]

AL-1 engine in the Kronos. You can easily get a great Minimoog sound
from this engine. Word.

[ThunderKeys]

Thanks to David, Jim, and Bill. I appreciate the help. The William Busch synth collection had exactly what I had hoped for. I was unaware of this until now. Again thanks to all.

Mike
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We are the KORG! I am Fifth of Flatted Seventh.

[jimknopf]

[SanderXpander]

I would agree that they all sound "warm", but my MicroMoog sounds completely different from my Voyager, which sounds completely different from my friend's Mini. For that matter, all Minis sound different from each other.

[jimknopf]

Yes, I know, same with my Voyager and my Moog LP TE, and even two Minis could sound different back then. But they all still have much more in common than AL-1 sounds do have in common with any of them.

I also know that the terms "warm" and "punchy" are not more than small helpless keywords (no need to begin one of the well known technical debates) to catch an audible difference, which is much more complex than these words can describe.

We had all these discussions with the Access Viruses before. Howard Scarr, Matt Picone, Peter Krischker and other skilled synth programmers made some really good "Moog-like" patches for them. Howard even used tricks like "recursive modulation" to achieve convex and concave envelope behaviour. When I had no other VA or substractive synth than a Virus C or later a Virus TI, I was happy to use them, though I soon noticed the missing natural low and high end/ivertone range in the Access synth sound. But from the day I bought an analogue Moog again, the impression of Moog reminiscene faded very fast into something like "slight reminiscence of well known Moog sounds". You can't replace a Moog sound on an Access synth.

AL-1 offers a broader sound spectrum than the Access synths. But it has its own Oscillator and filter sound, and the possibilities of making it sound like a (any!) Moog still seem limited to me unless proven otherwise.

I love to be proven wrong if something good comes from it. So everybody go for it.
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5

[ThunderKeys]

@jimknopf - I respect the pure unique sound that some of these incredible instruments have made over the years, and your obvious passion for them is admirable. I never hoped for a totally accurate rendition of Steve Winwood's incredible piece anyway, as if I could play it and do it any justice at all! I was more hoping to learn the synth programming and wanted this to be an exercise towards that end, and represented a good model/starting point for me. And you very graciously helped me, so again thanks.

Best wishes,
Mike
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We are the KORG! I am Fifth of Flatted Seventh.

[burningbusch]

I'm glad you found the program helpful. When researching this sound I found that Winwood was using a MultiMoog, not a mini. I've owned Minis and a micro, but never a Multi. The interesting part of the sound is the initial attack which Winwood talks about in an interview, the buzzy sound. He didn't mention how it was achieved. I looked at the manual for the Multi and found the answer. One of the envelope generators can be used to modulate pulse width of the second oscillator. That was it, a quick buzzing, then a very straight sound. And interestingly, it can only be applied to the one oscillator. I was able to emulate this with AL-1 as you can easily apply an envelope to pulse width of the second oscillator.

Interesting, in the discussion of the Minimoog here, I don't see how the Mini would be able to really nail this sound. It has no pulse width control (and obviously no way to modulate this) and the straight tone that follows lies somewhere between the static pulse waves on the Mini.

Busch.
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Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com

[jimknopf]

No misunderstanding involved, Thunderkeys: I completely understand your goal. And I like the Busch patch collection more than any other Kronos VA synth collection. And for practical reasons an AL-1 substutute can still do quite a useful job, especially in band context.

I just won't go as far as thinking that my Kronos AL-1 could seriously replace my Moog sounds.

P.S.
Hi Busch, just notice you came in between. I didn't know which instrument Stevie Winwood really used (I even read some time ago in a magazine that he used a Prophet, and had some doubts). I just keep on hearing significant differences between all AL-1 patches I know so far and the Moogs, not due to programming, but due to the overall sonic character of AL-1. The Voyager allows PWM, by the way, though it's a little tricky to program the modulation around a square wave center within the continuous Voyager waveforms.
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5

[burningbusch]

Though I don't own a King Korg, I've been impressed with the filter variations and emulations. I am hoping there is a possibility of using the upcoming ELECTRIBE Music Production Station directly connected to the Kronos, ideally USB (out MIDI, back in AUDIO). And then, if the pads could be used to trigger the Kronos pads, that would be icing on the cake. If one could use patch change to seamlessly integrate the Electribe to the Kronos, it could be very cool. At $400 USD, it looks like a steal. Time will tell.

Here's the marketing blurb on the Electribe.

"For the electribe, KORG designed a synth engine that gives you the maximum sound-creating freedom and the fastest sound production. The 409 oscillator waveforms include analog modeling and PCM. The analog modeling synth engine provides a broad variety ranging from simple basic waveforms to complex combinations such as dual, unison, sync, ring modulation, and cross modulation. The PCM sound engine provides mainly rhythm sounds, but also covers multisamples for keyboard. (collaborations with Sample Magic, Loopmasters, Prime Loops are included)

The filters at the heart of the sound-shaping capabilities are inherited directly from the KingKORG, and they use filter algorithms that simulate standard synthesizers so that you can get "the sound" which was used in famous songs, just by selecting the appropriate filter type."

Busch.
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Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com

[jimknopf]

The KK filters belong to the best I ever heard from VAs. They would be even more useful, if the KK could get one more envelope by update, or at least an additional LFO, to be more flexible with modulation.

The new Electribe will profit a lot from these filters, and Electribe pads could be real fun if they work as you wish with a Kronos!
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5

[LivePsy]

[Broadwave]

There are a few tricks you can do with the AL-1 filter to make it behave slightly more "Moogish"

The resonance on Moog VCF's tend to fall off around 100Hz, and you can get a similar effect by routing the VCF EG to the Resonance AMS... keep the resonance level at zero and use the AMS level instead, this gives a rich resonant sweep that rolls off nicely at the bass end.

Obviously, set it up as 24dB, High Resonance with Tight Reso Bass. If you're using "Square" waves, then make sure you set the pulse width to around 47 or 53 (not 50, as that's a perfect square wave - I've yet to come across a Minimoog that has a spot-on 50% pulse). This will add a hint of upper harmonics which sound great with 3 oscillators (you'll need to double up on the AL-1).

I've got close, but IMHO you'll never be able to get a perfect Mini from the Kronos.
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