Korg Forums

[kleant]

Loops are created in the first place so an user/Pro or amateur or whatever which will need to use them cant or should not create that sound/beat or peace of music loop from scratch that's the whole point of it!

Usually Loops are created by record companies for their hits and sold with some copyright protection on editing or altering them. However they can be created by anyone who have knowledge but still that's the whole point why they are created in the first place so others probably can not or should not recreate that loop from scratch since will never be 100% identical and will never sound the same! Only if u use the same instruments, tools, samples, eq, fx etc.. and the most important the same talent of a person who created them in the first place!

But as said above "Don't use Loops" is quite boring now and does not solve anything regarding the sample slots as reported by other users as well.

[Aripearlmusic]

Sampling the actual sound using automation channels from a DAW instead of using loops is not a time consuming workaround. The whole process takes about 10 minutes including recording time, setting the PCG, and programming time with a DAW and if its drums it allows you to save each part of the kit in the right drum family giving you the ability to mix it properly and saves thousands of samples in the long run and gives you the flexibility to make your own ideas. Many softsynth Arpegiators and sequencers can export midi and will allow you to turn them off and sample the sound/kit. It boils down to whether you know what you are doing on the 4x and are willing to invest in time saving shortcuts like software automatic samplers for both software and hardware and really learn the tools you have. The fact that you thought the nord sampler was even worth a look tells me how much you know about the korg and other samplers
_________________
Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en

[siebenhirter]

To create a sample, to set start/stop/loop points (maybe with Nord Sample Editor 3) and just to dragging and drop them into a session, using nothing but loops and expecting to end up with something good is probably not going to happen.

It's okay to use samples with loops when you need them, but it's also okay to be creative with all that tools that an equipment uses to get the best results with samples like in Pa-Keyboards.

To create loops to users which will need to use them because of should not create that sound/beat from scratch is ok. It is a well-known method since working with samples was startet, but it is not a contradicton to use methods that the existing equipment offers. Looks like that other methods than the ones that have always been used to are ignored here.

As mentioned above the key maybe to try to be creative with samples, because just dragging and only to rely on well-set loops does not seem to be satisfactory for the features offered by Pa-keyboards.

If limit of 15048 is criticised also features offered for the sound design should be noticed - we are talking about Pa4x not about vast majority of the industry or Ableton Live forum.

PS: it is conceivable that this limit will be exceeded if one prefers to use a large number of styles with time sliced samples
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -

Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de

[Korghelper]

I'm guessing not many work with hiphop, rap, or many of the musical genres that owe their very existence to loops.

I'm guessing many are mired in legacy styles for which indeed, loops are NOT the best solution.

I'm guessing that many do not explore ethnic musics that defy easy programming of instruments and performance styles that defy effective programming.

For all of those people I say stick to programming. Do what you know best.

But for God's sake, stop acting like jerks to people who want to move beyond your narrow confines of what can and can't be done using programming (or to be more accurate for 99% of arranger users, what is and isn't available in the ROM and expansion packs!).

This thread was supposed to be about PA4X COMPLAINTS. Of which one very large one is the insufficient number of slots to use loops effectively (the only hurdle to its easy use, BTW).

If you want to complain about people using loops, GO FIND ANOTHER THREAD...

[Aripearlmusic]

i program and sample for hip hop, rap, dubstep, trap, future bass, EDM, dubcore, various ethnic styles using quarter and 8th tone scales, indian, arabic, latin, and african percussion as well as realistic kits sampled from both real kits and plugins. all without using loops.
_________________
Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en

[siebenhirter]

It cannot be denied that the traditional looping method is popular and widely used - it is also the only possibility if only one or at most two oscillators are available per sound.

But with Pa-keyboards it is not a strong argument what 99% of arranger users are programming with one oscillator, because there are 28 for each soundprogram.

A sixfold velocity layering with separately looped samples and assigned to separate programs can be realized much more subtly in terms of sound with the numerous oscillators on a Pa keyboard. While the looped samples mostly do not differ in any parameters other than the different loop points, several oscillators allow the implementation of this layering to use a single sample for all layers, but these can be designed with different parameters of the separate oscillators of a program and more efficiently than through differently designed loops.

With the conventional method of separate looping maybe you need 60,000 sample slots for sixfold velocity layers 10,000 slots are sufficient for the method with doing the same much better with the parameters of different oscillators of one single program (pcg-item of Pa keyboards).

We also had other topic with explanations why reason is not the 15K positions limit and why to use sound mode of Pa-Keyboards on his level we also already had ----->
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=119586&start=15
_________________
kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -

Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de

[Korghelper]

I am not sure we are on the same planet, here. You don’t use velocity layered loops. In general you use one loop at a time, sometimes two (if you want to layer percussion with a basic beat, for instance). So a two bar loop divided on 16ths is 32 samples. A four bar loop is 64. And depending on the beat, it can be half that. Where all this nonsense about tens of thousands of samples is coming from I’ve no idea. And, as I alluded to earlier, loops are often simply needed at their original tempo. So don’t need dividing at all.

ONE loop can be an entire percussion ensemble playing. I feel a little sorry for Ari’s clients if they have to wait for him to program an entire samba ensemble when he could be grabbing a loop and using it in seconds... Time is money. Yes, there MIGHT be a lot of satisfaction in taking hours to program an utterly convincing ethnic beat, but back in the real world, we have deadlines, whether it for a client or simply so we don’t spend hours getting one tune ready for a gig.

I wish the people saying how well they can program beats as convincing as a well recorded would put up or shut up. I have loop libraries of kit and percussion loops played by the best drummers and percussionists in the world, recorded on the finest instruments in the world’s best studios. And I can use one as quick as it takes to drag and drop it.

I’d LOVE to hear anything from the programming crowd that fools me for one second. I can say for certain nothing in the ROM does. Put up some of your beats. Ask me to guess if it’s a loop or a programmed beat. Then admit how long it took to program.

There’s a real world out there. And I’m not trying to sell anything...

[Korghelper]

I am not sure we are on the same planet, here. You don’t use velocity layered loops. In general you use one loop at a time, sometimes two (if you want to layer percussion with a basic beat, for instance). So a two bar loop divided on 16ths is 32 samples. A four bar loop is 64. And depending on the beat, it can be half that. Where all this nonsense about tens of thousands of samples is coming from I’ve no idea. And, as I alluded to earlier, loops are often simply needed at their original tempo. So don’t need dividing at all.

ONE loop can be an entire percussion ensemble playing. I feel a little sorry for Ari’s clients if they have to wait for him to program an entire samba ensemble when he could be grabbing a loop and using it in seconds... Time is money. Yes, there MIGHT be a lot of satisfaction in taking hours to program an utterly convincing ethnic beat, but back in the real world, we have deadlines, whether it for a client or simply so we don’t spend hours getting one tune ready for a gig.

I wish the people saying how well they can program beats as convincing as a well recorded would put up or shut up. I have loop libraries of kit and percussion loops played by the best drummers and percussionists in the world, recorded on the finest instruments in the world’s best studios. And I can use one as quick as it takes to drag and drop it.

I’d LOVE to hear anything from the programming crowd that fools me for one second. I can say for certain nothing in the ROM does. Put up some of your beats. Ask me to guess if it’s a loop or a programmed beat. Then admit how long it took to program.

There’s a real world out there. And I’m not trying to sell anything...

[siebenhirter]

[Aripearlmusic]

All loops are sliced by the amount of "one shots" in it and its double for stereo loops. If you quantize the drums or percussion beforehand and switch it to mono which is how you would get the numbers you mentioned instead of the higher numbers i was mentioning. Properly samples percussion and drums absolutely can sound realistic and in some cases even better than the real thing in the mix simply because it's cleaner. And as far as my customers waiting for Beats I can program a professional beat including the mix inside of a half an hour including 9 variations 1 intro and 5 fills. I think the reason why you're struggling with this it's because you're overthinking it and working way too hard and can't seem to figure out the software because there are a lot of shortcuts that can be used without compromising the sound quality that allow you to edit thousands of samples at once if you know where to look.
_________________
Ari Pearl Music
Sound Developer for the 5x and 4x at https://performersheaven.com/en/shop-en/by-author-en/ari-en

[kleant]

Overcomplicated and not really useful anymore since are reported users that have run out off memory slots regardless using loops or not!

If someone wants or don't want to use loops does not matter however claiming to match and program any loop to a full style in 10 or 30 minutes including recording is not really serious! Any users pro or not who does this for a living will know that it takes hours if not many many hours to create a pro style and still will need changes improvements from time to time during testing on live situation!

There is a reason time sliced loops are allowed on pa4x and there is a reason why loops are created in the first place. And it's not only a market reason but a technical reason as well. Some beats, samples or whatever call them as you like can never be replicated 100% with programin in style however professional you may think you are.

So whether you like using loops or not is down to personal preference and either mode have its benefits and flaws, its up to the user to make the best of them. Style programming default more traditional way and loops or plugins are the future same as with any programin language example comparing html with html5 miles apart however you can't do html5 without body parts of mother html.

The real problem is sample slots which we don't really know why is the 15k number and not bigger. Is it down to a just Os limitation or a more big problem such as physical Ram. it's about time korg address this sooner rather than later will be better for everyone.

[siebenhirter]

[kleant]

I did not say you are wrong but tried to throw some sence on this loop or no loops madness I think its time to move on from this because it's not the main problem loops or not pa4x or pa3x even if we are on the pa4x topic.

[Aripearlmusic]

[kleant]

You can talk technical which makes sense and nonsense all day I could do the same but what you say does not match with your timing sorry but hey I don't mind if you know better than good luck.