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Opinion: New Keyboards and Midi 2.0
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Opinion: New Keyboards and Midi 2.0 Reply with quote

https://qz.com/1788828/how-will-midi-2-0-change-music/

Midi 2.0 is a game changer, especially if one is into full expression of various musical instruments using a keyboard.

That said, I would not buy any new keyboard unless it has Midi 2.0

"The biggest development is the expansion from 7-bit values to 32-bit values. Mike Kent, one of the technical leaders in creating MIDI 2.0, says this is like going from the resolution of a 1980s television to the high-def televisions of today. It means that instead of 128 steps for features like volume, there will now be billions. An area where producers think this might be particularly helpful is allowing for subtle “pitch bend” (see the video below) and controlling how much bass and treble are emphasized in every note.

Also, with more memory, there are simply many more possible features that MIDI 2.0 can try to emulate. More memory should also reduce the chance of the timing between playing a MIDI instrument and digital recording to be slightly off. This should mean music played on MIDI 2.0 instruments will feel more analog, and make it possible for non-keyboard instruments to work better with MIDI. Historically, guitar, violin, and trumpet players have had to learn play keys in order to better translate their work through MIDI. Now, hopefully, they will be able to play their instrument of choice as an input into MIDI-compatible recording software. "
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kronoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we already see the time that we can lose with only 128 possibilities, you can easily imagine the many traps set by this future MIDI 2 standard !

Sorry ! I say this for fun !
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronoSphere wrote:
When we already see the time that we can lose with only 128 possibilities, you can easily imagine the many traps set by this future MIDI 2 standard !

Sorry ! I say this for fun !
Very Happy


I hear you. Sometimes 'more' is not better.

And with all of todays [ or from 2011 Kronos] tech, most of us have well enough to manage, understand and implement.

Seriously, 2.0 is going to solve many of the 'expression challenges' I experience with todays keyboards.

It will possibly remove the Roli Seaboard from my shopping list.

Roland claims they have an A-88MKii that is 2.0 ready but I would prefer user testing.

I am thinking or hoping that Yamaha Korg, and Roland are very busy taking advantage of 2.0.

If so, what 2.0 is all about will become more clear to todays keyboard player.
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tunaman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inspect growing pains as the developers learn how to leverage the new capabilities and discover limitations and boundaries.

I’d be hesitant to be an early adopter myself. Once it matures it will provide amazing results, however.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tunaman wrote:
Inspect growing pains as the developers learn how to leverage the new capabilities and discover limitations and boundaries.

I’d be hesitant to be an early adopter myself. Once it matures it will provide amazing results, however.


2.0 work has been around for many years. its possible, a new breed of products could erupt, now that the spec is done.

As I mentioned in the o/p, and I think long term on expensive purchases, I wouldn't consider a new keyboard unless it has 2.0
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tunaman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
As I mentioned in the o/p, and I think long term on expensive purchases, I wouldn't consider a new keyboard unless it has 2.0


Absolutely agree with you there, although IMHO timing is everything.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tunaman wrote:
GregC wrote:
As I mentioned in the o/p, and I think long term on expensive purchases, I wouldn't consider a new keyboard unless it has 2.0


Absolutely agree with you there, although IMHO timing is everything.


For Roland, its almost here. They have an A-88 MKii that claims to be 2.0

I wouldn't run out and buy it, but I will be watching early adopter reviews.
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voip
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, with MIDI 2.0, if pitch bend CC messages were being sent at the higher resolution, looking at it simplistically, a data message rate 33,554,432 times higher would be required, and an even higher data rate, since there would be more bits per message.

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Jan1
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The MIDI upgrade opens up a world of possibilities and improvements on all levels, I can’t imagine manufacturers sticking with the one directional age old 1.0 protocol.

Besides the tighter timing thanks to the higher resolution there are other major advantages to consider as a result of the bi-directional traffic enhancement such as profile configuration and property exchange.
It will make life a lot easier for musicians.

For those interested I suggest you read the article on Midi.org.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the post. The mfgr's have been involved in 2.0. So its no business surprise for them.

If implemented successfully, a Korg or a Yamaha or Roland could use 2.0 as a competitive advantage in their new products.

I am looking forward to that. I would ike to think it wouldn't take 2 or 3 or 4 years to get going on 2.0
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
I would like to think it wouldn't take 2 or 3 or 4 years to get going on 2.0

No, I don’t see any reason to stick with MIDI 1.0 for much longer, and I have to give credit to Roland for being the first to feature a controller with MIDI 2.0 compatibility.
If anything there’s a clear demand for more expressive control in keyboards, so MIDI 2.0 comes at a very good moment in time.
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bpoodoo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The increased resolution from 7-bit (128 steps) to 32-bit has nothing to do with how fast the pitch bend data is sent. It means how fine a pitch bend can be sent. For example, in MIDI 1.0, over 1 octave, 12 semitones, the smallest pitch bend step would be 12/128 = 0.1 semitone. In 2.0, it could theoretically be 12/(2^32) = 0.000000028 semitones. But how practical is that?

It's really an irrelevant bit of marketing to promote the 7-bit to 32-bit change in MIDI 2.0 by itself to provide a functional benefit. What current instrument can play and whose hearing can detect a 1 billionth change in pitch? I can see how adding a few more bits of resolution would be helpful for more expressive control, but from 7 to 32 is overkill from a practical point of view. 32-bit makes sense in general because it's more aligned with common number of bits for typical software data types (INT32).

What is being demonstrated in the video is independent pitch bend per note in a single MIDI channel. It's an addition to the MIDI 2.0 message protocol. This would certainly allow greater expressive potential. At the same time, it also requires support for much higher data rate over the MIDI interface, and faster processing of the MIDI data by both the transmitter and receiver.

What needs to be considered though is minimizing latency or jitter between the timing when the pitch bend is commanded by the source to when the pitch bend is heard in the destination voice. With larger amounts of data coming in at higher rates, receiving software has to prioritize, buffer, and route this data efficiently to meet performance expectations.

For example, what if the keyboard is in the middle of some bidirectional data exchange with another device, can it simultaneously also process an onslaught of pitch bends from 10 notes in parallel from each of 15 different MIDI channels at the same time? Implementation details must be done right, and there should be test cases for such high-volume scenarios. Else, a risk of MIDI 2.0 implementation, as Scottie from Star Trek said of the Excelsior, "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."
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voip
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

14-bit resolution CC messages are already possible with the MIDI 1.0 standard, though the MIDI controller, and recipient both have to be able to support it.

The MIDI 2.0 spec is only available to paid up members of the MIDI Association, so it's not possible to drill down into the detail, and determine the implications for data rates, and mitigation strategies for handling conflicts.

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Jan1
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From midi.org:

What's more, major timing improvements in MIDI 2.0 can apply to MIDI 1.0 devices—in fact, some MIDI 1.0 gear can even "retrofit" certain MIDI 2.0 features.

This seems to suggest that there is a possibility to bring MIDI 2.0 to today’s instruments by means of a software update, or at least a part of the MIDI 2.0 functionality.

MIDI 2.0 has the potential to greatly enhance the user friendliness of software and eliminate the time currently spent on configuring controllers with proprietary apps and protocols.

Again from midi.org:

Profile Configuration

MIDI gear can now have Profiles that can dynamically configure a device for a particular use case. If a control surface queries a device with a "mixer" Profile, then the controls will map to faders, panpots, and other mixer parameters. But with a "drawbar organ" Profile, that same control surface can map its controls automatically to virtual drawbars and other keyboard parameters—or map to dimmers if the profile is a lighting controller. This saves setup time, improves workflow, and eliminates tedious manual programming.

Property Exchange

While Profiles set up an entire device, Property Exchange messages provide specific, detailed information sharing. These messages can discover, retrieve, and set many properties like preset names, individual parameter settings, and unique functionalities—basically, everything a MIDI 2.0 device needs to know about another MIDI 2.0 device. For example, your recording software could display everything you need to know about a synthesizer onscreen, effectively bringing hardware synths up to the same level of recallability as their software counterparts.
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bpoodoo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as the approved MIDI 2.0 specification and manufacturers' implementations, in good faith and with due diligence, adhere to the mantra "Don't Be Glitchy", all should be good!
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