 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:05 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| bpoodoo wrote: | The increased resolution from 7-bit (128 steps) to 32-bit has nothing to do with how fast the pitch bend data is sent. It means how fine a pitch bend can be sent. For example, in MIDI 1.0, over 1 octave, 12 semitones, the smallest pitch bend step would be 12/128 = 0.1 semitone. In 2.0, it could theoretically be 12/(2^32) = 0.000000028 semitones. But how practical is that?
It's really an irrelevant bit of marketing to promote the 7-bit to 32-bit change in MIDI 2.0 by itself to provide a functional benefit. What current instrument can play and whose hearing can detect a 1 billionth change in pitch? I can see how adding a few more bits of resolution would be helpful for more expressive control, but from 7 to 32 is overkill from a practical point of view. 32-bit makes sense in general because it's more aligned with common number of bits for typical software data types (INT32).
." |
The main reason I am very interested in 2.0 is it provides the structure to achieve much improved expression of acoustic instruments [ guitars, reeds, sax, brass, flute, violin, percussion etc etc].
Its up to the keyboard co's to implement this new 'plumbing' to achieve acoustic instrument realism. My take is that they will likely re-think how they utilize samples, multi samples, velocity, controls, etc.
I am thinking that the keyboard co's won't need to utilize layers and layers of samples in a program/patch to achieve articulation/expression of the acoustic instrument.
All that said, and I speak from my bubble as a home studio song writer who utilizes a full palette of acoustic instruments for multi track recording.
A keyboardist who does cover songs, your basic piano, organ and synth tracks in a band may not be as immediately curious about 2.0. Their band already has a lead guitarist, a drummer, for example.
Just the same, it will be fun to see the experts at Korg/Roland/Yamaha take advantage of 2.0. Once the content is demonstrated, and its all about sales, as we know, the potential will be more obvious.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams 
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
19naia
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 1216
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
The resolution to take pitch bend to ultra fine definition means a lot to me.
I imagine it would not only allow fine semitone fractions, but fine bending between the farthest reaches of an entire octave or more.
Just imagine playing a single note and using pitch bend or it’s CC message controlled with a slider, to play the note like a strummed saw.
Or play a chord and slide it up and down like a steel guitar.
You get good enough at it and you can play a single note or single chord throughout a single song that traverses 8 chords and all twelve chromatic notes, and you would slide into the right note every step of the way without leaving the one chord or one note under your key’s hand. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bpoodoo wrote: | | The increased resolution from 7-bit (128 steps) to 32-bit has nothing to do with how fast the pitch bend data is sent. It means how fine a pitch bend can be sent. For example, in MIDI 1.0, over 1 octave, 12 semitones, the smallest pitch bend step would be 12/128 = 0.1 semitone. In 2.0, it could theoretically be 12/(2^32) = 0.000000028 semitones. But how practical is that? |
The first part of that is just incorrect. Pitch bend on most professional instruments, in MIDI 1.0, is 14-bits, or 16384 values. That is how it is in the Kronos and generally most if not all Korg keyboards and pro synths from other vendors. That means in MIDI 1.0, over an octave bend, the smallest step size is 12/16384 = 0.000732421875 semitones. Quite enough for smooth bending without perceptible steppiness.
I've not researched the new spec in great detail (yet), but some of it seems overkill to me initially. But I'm sure the reasons for it will become apparent.
| 19naia wrote: | Just imagine playing a single note and using pitch bend or it’s CC message controlled with a slider, to play the note like a strummed saw.
Or play a chord and slide it up and down like a steel guitar. |
You can pretty much do that now with MIDI 1.0. The pedal steel KARMA patch in the Kronos will "slide a whole chord up or down" smoothly over an octave as one of its settings, if I recall correctly. What you can't do is do it separately for each of multiple individual notes being held - not without putting them on separate MIDI Channels. But MIDI 2.0 allows that.
It remains to be seen whether things like that are truly useful for real musicians, and not just video parlor-tricks. And based on the complexity of the new spec, I would not be surprised if it takes a good bit of time for manufacturers to bring out new boards with MIDI 2.0.
_________________
Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pedja
Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 576
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know what can be a benefit to have Roland A-88 MKII controller, if we have other keyboards with MIDI 1.0. If I am not wrong, maybe we can connect them (keyboards with MIDI 1.0), but benefit from Roland controller with MIDI 2.0 in this situation will be 0.
Correct me if I am wrong. Someone said that MIDI 2,0 can be implemented in old keyboards in software way (with OS update patch), it will be a great thing. I am curious what could be with KARMA (implemented on Kronos) with MIDI 2 standard (question for Mr. Stephan Key), if Korg update new OS with MIDI 2 support? Thank you for all your attention.
_________________
Pedja
______________________________________
Kronos X73, Kurzweil PC3LE8, ASM Hydrasynth, Arturia Keylab mk2 61, AKAI MPC Key 61
My music: https://soundcloud.com/pedjak-1
_______________________________________
My CG Galleries:
http://www.museumofcomputerart.com/autogallery2013/autogallery_kalajdzijevic/
http://moca.virtual.museum/autogallery2015/autogallery_kalajdzijevic/
http://moca.virtual.museum/autogallery2017/autogallery_kalajdzijevic/
http://moca.virtual.museum/dablog/dablog02.htm
http://moca.virtual.museum/autogallery2019/autogallery_kalajdzijevic/
https://www.saatchiart.com/PedjaK |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bpoodoo
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Posts: 429
Location: Ding Dong, TX
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| StephenKay wrote: |
The first part of that is just incorrect. Pitch bend on most professional instruments, in MIDI 1.0, is 14-bits, or 16384 values. That is how it is in the Kronos and generally most if not all Korg keyboards and pro synths from other vendors. That means in MIDI 1.0, over an octave bend, the smallest step size is 12/16384 = 0.000732421875 semitones. Quite enough for smooth bending without perceptible steppiness.
|
Yeah, you're right. I double-checked against the MIDI 1.0 spec. Pitch bend is 14-bits not 7-bits. The qz.com article was wrong:
"Though MIDI has done an exceptional job of digitizing music for the last 37 years, it hasn’t been perfect. MIDI quantizes music, meaning it forces music components into a particular value. In MIDI 1.0, all data was in 7-bit values. That means musical qualities were quantized on a scale of 0 to 127. Features like volume, pitch, and how much of the sound should come out of the right or left speaker are all measured on this scale, with 128 possible points. This is not a lot of resolution. For some really sophisticated listeners, they can clearly hear the steps between points."
And I thought I could believe everything I read. #disillusioned
_________________
bpoodoo
Triton Extreme 88 w/MOSS
"We all move on, like centuries and doves."
Last edited by bpoodoo on Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bpoodoo
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Posts: 429
Location: Ding Dong, TX
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I did some pitch bend testing on my Triton Ex. I never had an issue with the pitch bend but was surprised to find just how coarse the controller is. Using the sequencer I manually recorded some very slow pitch bends and then looked at the MIDI events.
The range of the events was from -8192 to 8191 (14 bits), as expected. But the minimum difference in pitch bend between any two events was 90. This corresponds to 16384/90=182 analog-to-digital steps the joystick is capable of generating for pitch bend. A far cry from a billion in MIDI 2.0 or even 16384 steps in MIDI 1.0.
The point being, the controller designs and capabilities need to be tested and evaluated (the specs may not be available) and may be more significant than whether a controller is MIDI 1.0 or MIDI 2.0 in terms of providing enhanced expressiveness.
_________________
bpoodoo
Triton Extreme 88 w/MOSS
"We all move on, like centuries and doves." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
alamo
Joined: 22 Jul 2012
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
well now that midi 2.0 specs are here, Korg will begin to develop the Kronos 3  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bpoodoo wrote: | I did some pitch bend testing on my Triton Ex. I never had an issue with the pitch bend but was surprised to find just how coarse the controller is. Using the sequencer I manually recorded some very slow pitch bends and then looked at the MIDI events.
The range of the events was from -8192 to 8191 (14 bits), as expected. But the minimum difference in pitch bend between any two events was 90. This corresponds to 16384/90=182 analog-to-digital steps the joystick is capable of generating for pitch bend. A far cry from a billion in MIDI 2.0 or even 16384 steps in MIDI 1.0.
The point being, the controller designs and capabilities need to be tested and evaluated (the specs may not be available) and may be more significant than whether a controller is MIDI 1.0 or MIDI 2.0 in terms of providing enhanced expressiveness. |
Good point. The limitations of the physical controller may ultimately determine the resolution, not necessarily the spec of the data transmission. If this particular Triton were manufactured today with the same hardware, but supporting MIDI 2.0, you'd still only get 182 discrete pitch bend steps...
_________________
Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChrisDuncan
Senior Member
Joined: 17 May 2018
Posts: 389
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If the new spec is "midi on 11" then all the extra horsepower would be cool. However, if you just want your computer to talk to your keys, USB often provides as much if not more functionality. The real beauty of midi has been the way it allows such a huge amount of musical and computer gear to play nice with each other.
As anyone who watches tech knows, getting even a handful of companies to agree on a standard (like browser implementation of html or javascript, for instance) is a difficult thing to accomplish. It's absolutely mind boggling that midi was actually adopted across all those competing manufacturers back in the beginning, and that it's become as ubiquitous on keyboard gear as a power cord.
I've always felt the midi protocol was one of the biggest success stories in the history of music tech. If 2.0 enjoys the same universal adoption, I think we should build a statue in honor of these guys.
_________________
Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChrisDuncan wrote: | If the new spec is "midi on 11" then all the extra horsepower would be cool. However, if you just want your computer to talk to your keys, USB often provides as much if not more functionality. The real beauty of midi has been the way it allows such a huge amount of musical and computer gear to play nice with each other.
As anyone who watches tech knows, getting even a handful of companies to agree on a standard (like browser implementation of html or javascript, for instance) is a difficult thing to accomplish. It's absolutely mind boggling that midi was actually adopted across all those competing manufacturers back in the beginning, and that it's become as ubiquitous on keyboard gear as a power cord.
I've always felt the midi protocol was one of the biggest success stories in the history of music tech. If 2.0 enjoys the same universal adoption, I think we should build a statue in honor of these guys. |
My rough analogy is that midi is similar to the plumbing and heating in a home. And as the home ages, over 30 yrs, those 'utilities ' may not work well or efficiently. I think many misunderstand the importance of midi and/or take it for granted.
Given that the major co's are supporting the spec, I hope we see new products that take advantage of the strengths of 2.0
I don't expect this to take 2 or 3 yrs as some cynically project. I know co's are conservative [ IOW slow/careful to market] since its all about the $$.
2020 could be very interesting for us keyboard production types.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jan1
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 765
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Recently the MMA issued an official MIDI Manufacturer's Association press release.
Quoting from that release: “Manufacturers can now start creating products with confidence that they will work with not only with new MIDI 2.0 gear, but with legacy MIDI gear as well. Furthermore, Roland introduced the A-88 MK—the first MIDI 2.0-ready controller keyboard. It realizes MIDI 2.0’s promise of greater expressiveness thanks to higher controller and velocity resolution, coupled with the ability to take advantage of MIDI 2.0’s vastly extended range of controllers.”
Given the advantages and backward compatibility with MIDI 1.0 I don’t think it will take ages for MIDI 2.0 to appear in new products. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kronoSphere
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Posts: 697
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Then : soon : A brand new successor of the Kronos with MIDI 2.
la vie est belle 
_________________
trees are going fast.
https://www.lairdeparis.fr
Current Gear : Kronos 88 / Seaboard Rise / Triton Extreme / Sequoia / Motif Rack XS / TC Helicon voicelive rack /Awave 11 / Audio & VSTi plug-ins connected /wide touchscreen / iPad Pro 512. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ITguy54
Full Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2015
Posts: 247
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| alamo wrote: | | well now that midi 2.0 specs are here, Korg will begin to develop the Kronos 3 |
EXACTLY what I posted in another thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yeskeys
Full Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 128
Location: Virginia Beach VA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GregC wrote: |
As I mentioned in the o/p, and I think long term on expensive purchases, I wouldn't consider a new keyboard unless it has 2.0 |
Just curious ... what is your threshold for "expensive" purchases? I'd like to know the consensus among this Kronos crowd here...
_________________
Korg Karma module, Kronos61, SEQUENTIAL PRO3, DSI OB6, Oberheim OB8, XStation25, Yamaha MFC (for Karma Pads), Omnisphere, guitars by Tom Anderson, Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, D'Angelico, Parker, Line6, Guitar Processors by Fractal Audio, Amplification by Mesa, Carvin, w/Celestion V30(!) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yeskeys wrote: | | GregC wrote: |
As I mentioned in the o/p, and I think long term on expensive purchases, I wouldn't consider a new keyboard unless it has 2.0 |
Just curious ... what is your threshold for "expensive" purchases? I'd like to know the consensus among this Kronos crowd here... |
good question. My answer is 2 fold. Plus I am a gear minimalist. I don't generate any income from my song writing. And I am retired plus I have a short term financial goal [ 12 months ] to eliminate/pay off my home mortgage.
Today, anything over $1200 is ' expensive'. But thats for the next 12 months.
In a year, I should be more flush, thus my expensive purchase threshold # is $2000 or more.
I don't flip new expensive equipment every year or 2 like many folks. But those folks are generating income , which is a different set of circumstances.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
