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RC-IA
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 971
Location: FR
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 Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:07 pm Post subject: Wavestate multimbrality thoughts |
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Hi, I hope program changes per layer (since they can have their own midi channel) will come. Kind of strange the only PC message are for setlists (64) for a 4 parts synth with tons of patches.
Still excited to get mine soon i hope, it sounds really good on YT, so should be even better in real!
another thing that bothers me, please correct me if i did not understand it well in the manual: when using it in multitimbral mode (each layer has its own midi channel), it acts like automatically in local off mode, which means that you can not play it with a master keyboard without loosing the Wavestate control surface. as un example my NL4 keyboard (change for a rack since) has a midi global channel, the 4 parts are permanently connected a midi channel on their own (not the case of Wavestate i believe), i could still use NL4 knobs to modify the sound even when playing with an external keyboard.
I hope to get information on this and hope i'm wrong concerning Wavestate about that or if it's true, if i understand it correctly, i hope it's something that could be update to be more flexible. thanx a lot anyone.
originally posted on GS
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Narioso
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Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 300
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:47 am Post subject: |
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All midi gear I used determine through Local on/off if local controls directly do anything - or just send midi.
I don't think Korg would leave that approach.
So the midi setting Local on or off decides if keys or controls do anything locally.
But each layer can set Global Midi Channel on or off - meaning you decide which layer will be controlled by panel knobs.
Multitimbral like Nord has the global channel to select performances as I recall. And each channel for each part in the performance.
Layering/split on Prologue works with a menu setting which layer or both are affected by controls on panel.
I don't do live gigs at all - so all in daw computer usually echoing through computer to also record those things you do in realtime.
But as you said - only the 64 slots can be addressed with program changes. As I read a comment by Dan the structure is different and allow 10 000+ saves of programs and is just a database. So realtime program changes might be slow to do in realtime over the full range.
Midi implementation says "Selects Slots in the current Set List".
A set list 1-16 in four banks - that's it as I read it. Over midi program change 0-63.
So Wavestate is more like 16 performances with 4 parts which is in the low end maybe.
There were quite significant updates on firmware like on Prologue - so think this might be highly requested to extend a bit.
What I used programming with databases is that record number always stays the same until you purge the database and deleted records disappear - which is rarely done.
So the sequential record number could be used to let a performance/program/bank change address that - I think that is doable firmware wise. Give use the record number in the database in display that a program has and this can be addressed. So we can assign anything saved as a program or performance to those 64 slots dynamically.
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MIDI gear: Sequential REV2.16, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05 |
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RC-IA
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 971
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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i don't mind loosing keyboard with local off, as usual. but in the case of wavestate i think we should not always lose the knobs control (like an half way local off). I lke the form factor of wavestate. But if you control it from a bigger keyboard in multimbral mode, you will lose knob control since multimbral disable global midi and so put it in local off (again if i understand the manual correctly).
Thanx for you insights 
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StolenToast
Joined: 31 Aug 2019
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Is multitimbral mode a specific mode? Or do you just mean playing each of the four layers separately?
The manual is huge, could you tell me which page you're referencing here? I'm curious about this now, and mine hasn't arrived yet.
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Wavestate soon, Electribe 2 Sample, Minilogue XD, Blofeld, Behr Model D, Neutron, Novation Circuit, Zoom R8, Push 2 and a boat load of Arturia plugins
and some grandpa's guitars |
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Narioso
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 300
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| RC-IA wrote: | i don't mind loosing keyboard with local off, as usual. but in the case of wavestate i think we should not always lose the knobs control (like an half way local off). I lke the form factor of wavestate. But if you control it from a bigger keyboard in multimbral mode, you will lose knob control since multimbral disable global midi and so put it in local off (again if i understand the manual correctly).
Thanx for you insights |
If you set global midi on - let's say layer A and global to channel 1.
Then global midi off and a midi channel 2-4 on the other three layers B-D.
It's still multitimbral as far as I can tell - each midi channel 1-4 playing it's own program..
Then you got the knobs on layer A working.
I got mine today, endless fun.
After disecting a couple of programs it's beginning to sink in.
Last thing that took a while was time lane that always do fade-in and out and reason for some remaining stuff that I could not get rid of.
And nice enough, that I did not know writing the former post was that you can save and restore set lists with performances mapped to 64 slots each. There were some alternative creating new set lists in librarian as well, but did not look that deep yet.
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MIDI gear: Sequential REV2.16, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05 |
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voip
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 3792
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Out of the box, the Wavestate will respond to external MIDI on channel 1 as if the Wavestate's own keyboard was being played i.e. all layers respond.
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| RC-IA wrote: | | i don't mind loosing keyboard with local off, as usual. but in the case of wavestate i think we should not always lose the knobs control (like an half way local off). I lke the form factor of wavestate. But if you control it from a bigger keyboard in multimbral mode, you will lose knob control since multimbral disable global midi and so put it in local off (again if i understand the manual correctly). |
The standard knobs, buttons, etc. always work properly. The Mod Knobs send and receive MIDI, so like the other MIDI controls, they are disabled when local is turned off. But, it isn't necessary to turn off local control to use the wavestate multitimbrally. What part of the manual caused you to think otherwise?
- Dan
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Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Narioso wrote: | | There were some alternative creating new set lists in librarian as well, but did not look that deep yet. |
A heads-up about this: a user has reported a bug with the New Set List command in the Librarian. For Set Lists created by that command to appear in the list on the wavestate, you currently need to write them (or edit a Slot) on the wavestate. Otherwise, you'll see them in the Librarian, and can select them from the Librarian, but you can't select them from the wavestate front panel. I'm sorry for the inconvenience; we intend to release a fix for this when possible.
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Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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Narioso
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 300
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| voip wrote: | Out of the box, the Wavestate will respond to external MIDI on channel 1 as if the Wavestate's own keyboard was being played i.e. all layers respond.
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Those that I looked at also have all layers A-D set to use global midi channel ON - that is why.
Drop that, set to OFF, and ability to set midi channel individually appear - for each layer.
From main screen on a performance - browse(shift + page) over to Layer setup - and you can switch active layer for editing by liting the button A-D and change this for each.
You can also set if to have damper and all midi controllers to be sent, received individually for each layer.
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MIDI gear: Sequential REV2.16, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05
Last edited by Narioso on Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:26 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Narioso
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| danatkorg wrote: | | Narioso wrote: | | There were some alternative creating new set lists in librarian as well, but did not look that deep yet. |
A heads-up about this: a user has reported a bug with the New Set List command in the Librarian. For Set Lists created by that command to appear in the list on the wavestate, you currently need to write them (or edit a Slot) on the wavestate. Otherwise, you'll see them in the Librarian, and can select them from the Librarian, but you can't select them from the wavestate front panel. I'm sorry for the inconvenience; we intend to release a fix for this when possible. |
Thanks, good to know.
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RC-IA
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 971
Location: FR
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
If you set global midi on - let's say layer A and global to channel 1.
Then global midi off and a midi channel 2-4 on the other three layers B-D.
It's still multitimbral as far as I can tell - each midi channel 1-4 playing it's own program..
Then you got the knobs on layer A working.
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| Quote: |
The standard knobs, buttons, etc. always work properly. The Mod Knobs send and receive MIDI, so like the other MIDI controls, they are disabled when local is turned off. But, it isn't necessary to turn off local control to use the wavestate multitimbrally. What part of the manual caused you to think otherwise?
- Dan |
I overlooked the fact than midi global channel ON/OFF is PER layer.
I'm gonna try to be clearer. My setup: Daw or MPC X. Master midi keyboard connected to daw or MPC X. I want to sequence seperatly each layer from wavestate, so each layer will have it own midi channel, so midi global midi should be off for all, except maybe one that shared global midi channel number. I was thinking for whatever reason (misunderstood) midi global channel was global (not per layer). Thanx for pointing me that it's per channel. So i can set it as you described. but if i want to use mod knob on channel 2 selecting it with its button (which will have midi global channel off obviously), will it work?
Reading page 12/75/76 MIDI (printed, pdf is 16/79-80) if i turn global midi channel off to be able to set a specific midi channel for a layer i will loose MOD knob control on that specific layer (exception if a channel share the same midi channel with the global one? it seems it's only me, but i find this part confusing.
thanx a lot guys
------
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Last edited by RC-IA on Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RC-IA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Narioso wrote: |
And nice enough, that I did not know writing the former post was that you can save and restore set lists with performances mapped to 64 slots each. There were some alternative creating new set lists in librarian as well, but did not look that deep yet. |
You mean, from the hardware, we can save and restore setlists? if use the first 64 setlists (with program change), if i need 64 more, i just have to load another setlist from the hardware? that will solve my problem with layer not responding to program change, even if it's a little more work. If you confirm, it 's a great news!!!
Where did you buy yours? thanx
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RC-IA
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| RC-IA wrote: |
Reading page 12/75/76 MIDI (printed, pdf is 16/79-80) if i turn global midi channel off to be able to set a specific midi channel for a layer i will loose MOD knob control on that specific layer (exception if a channel share the same midi channel with the global one? it seems it's only me, but i find this part confusing. |
Here's the section you're referring to, I think.
Global Channel
[1...16]
This is the basic MIDI channel for the wavestate. It applies to:
• MIDI sent from the built-in keyboard and controllers (except for Program Mod Knobs)
74
Utility
• MIDI received by any Layer with Use Global MIDI Channel enabled
• MIDI CCs received by and sent from the Program Mod Knobs, for any Layer with Use Global MIDI Channel
enabled
• Program Change (via Set Lists)
• Other global functionality, such as modulation of Master Reverb, System Exclusive, and Arpeggiator
It doesn't matter whether or not a Layer is set to use the global channel. The knobs always work.
As noted above, disabling Local control disconnects the knobs internally, as it also does with everything else that sends MIDI. Looping back through the DAW should re-connect them.
- Dan
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Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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Narioso
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 300
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| RC-IA wrote: | | Narioso wrote: |
And nice enough, that I did not know writing the former post was that you can save and restore set lists with performances mapped to 64 slots each. There were some alternative creating new set lists in librarian as well, but did not look that deep yet. |
You mean, from the hardware, we can save and restore setlists? if use the first 64 setlists (with program change), if i need 64 more, i just have to load another setlist from the hardware? that will solve my problem with layer not responding to program change, even if it's a little more work. If you confirm, it 's a great news!!!
Where did you buy yours? thanx |
I cannot say, but midi implementation says it both sends and receives system exclusive messages, if you are familiar with that.
This means you can record all the data for a program on a track in daw, usually 300-400 bytes or so that can be sent once before playing back something.
But see nothing mentioned that usually handle this, so possibly is most done over librarian.
But Korg sometimes has more detailed specs for midi that are not part of manual, so something to look for maybe.
But librarian seems well equippped with backup choices and bundles and stuff - so they might have changed strategy a bit. But still - it says supporting system exclusive - so requests could be send over midi to have a program sent over to daw.
manual says
"Supports universal system exclusive messages device inquiry, master volume, master fine tuning, and master coarse tuning"
So it could be very limited.
Maybe Dan has more details on this what system exclusive stuff is possible with Wavestate.
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MIDI gear: Sequential REV2.16, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05 |
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