 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
 Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 1:22 am Post subject: Need advice on using time stretch on Kronos SEQ |
 |
|
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=669967&sid=a5baccfed9d87b30b923cead8b4df3f1
above seems to be a fair topic digging up the steps.
Anyway, I have several vocal tracks lets say 4-6 measures where to vocal
is uneven to the beat, or does not come in precisely on beat.
I use volume ramp, either up or down on measure to muddy up the off timing. But that is not a good solution
Any suggestions on solving my 'sync ' issue on audio tracks with vocals in the SEQ ?
I usually fuss with this using Audacity but that is hit or miss.
I have a deadline to get this done by Tuesday morning, California time.
Thank you for the fast help, guys !
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams 
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Mike Conway
Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2433
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Need advice on using time stretch on Kronos SEQ |
|
|
| GregC wrote: | http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=669967&sid=a5baccfed9d87b30b923cead8b4df3f1
above seems to be a fair topic digging up the steps.
Anyway, I have several vocal tracks lets say 4-6 measures where to vocal
is uneven to the beat, or does not come in precisely on beat.
I use volume ramp, either up or down on measure to muddy up the off timing. But that is not a good solution
Any suggestions on solving my 'sync ' issue on audio tracks with vocals in the SEQ ?
I usually fuss with this using Audacity but that is hit or miss.
I have a deadline to get this done by Tuesday morning, California time.
Thank you for the fast help, guys ! |
Honestly, I haven't uses TIME STRETCH on audio tracks, so can't really comment on that part. I've used it on samples and it was not very good quality. I actually heard the Audacity suggestion from you!
I don't know if your audio tracks run the whole length of the song and then part of it is off sync? Or are they short enough bits that you could just move them, like I do with these short files, in AUDIO EVENT EDIT (14:45 mark)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXuqPDJCqJE&t=885s
There are two other ways I would approach this. The first would be to INSERT a measure at the beginning of all tracks, except those particular audio tracks.
Go to TRACK PARAMETER - - DELAY settings and delay those particular audio tracks to the point where you like.
If those tracks run the length of the whole song, you could keep the first part, as is. Use the TRACK EDIT - - COPY TRACK function to duplicate those tracks. Adjust the duplicated tracks with the delay offset. You would have to use the mixer volume sliders to fade out the original tracks, when it comes to the part where they are out of sync. At that part, you would bring up the volume of the duplicate tracks, which are the delayed.
Second option requires knowledge of the sampler. Each song file has a sub folder for its audio tracks. Those tracks can be opened in the sampler, trimmed, assigned to a note (or notes), and made into a program. You could then just trigger the audio at the time you like. You could even edit the trigger note in the sequencer, so it goes right where you like.
To do the sample option, first go to your song file. If it's called BLISS.SNG, there will also be an audio folder, called BLISS_A. OPEN that folder.
If there are multiple songs in it, chose the correct song. OPEN it. You will see ATRACK_01, ATRACK_02, and so on. They represent the audio on Audio Track 1, 2, etc.
OPEN the desired Audio Track folder. Inside, you will see the actual 16 or 24 bit wave file. LOAD that wave to RAM (everything that goes to RAM becomes 16 bit).
Now, press the SAMPLE mode button. You can select that RAM based audio track in Trim, Loop, or Multisample modes. Personally, I would trim it right up to the point where the voice starts, so I have an instant on trigger. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pete.m
Senior Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 484
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Greg,
It's quite a difficult one to give a clear answer to, without actually being there to work on the track.
Sometimes, altering the tempo via timestretching will cure one timing problem, but will create another - especially on longer samples/vocal takes, where the phrasing hasn't been bang on all the way through.
Mike's suggestions look good to me. If I was doing it, I am sure that I would end up cutting the sample into much shorter sections, and then lose a frustrating afternoon trying to make it something like I imagine it should be.
I suppose that doing fresh takes is out of the question, given the time constraint. Best of luck with it - hope it works out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kronoSphere
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Posts: 697
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 10:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
In the audio edit track, go to audio event edit and into the little window beat tick you can precisely adjust where exactly your audio sample will begin in your audio track.
Concerning the time stetching : sorry to say that there are great plug ins for that and most of all great daw are more suitable to do this very well than the Kronos
_________________
trees are going fast.
https://www.lairdeparis.fr
Current Gear : Kronos 88 / Seaboard Rise / Triton Extreme / Sequoia / Motif Rack XS / TC Helicon voicelive rack /Awave 11 / Audio & VSTi plug-ins connected /wide touchscreen / iPad Pro 512. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Need advice on using time stretch on Kronos SEQ |
|
|
| Mike Conway wrote: | | GregC wrote: | http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=669967&sid=a5baccfed9d87b30b923cead8b4df3f1
above seems to be a fair topic digging up the steps.
Anyway, I have several vocal tracks lets say 4-6 measures where to vocal
is uneven to the beat, or does not come in precisely on beat.
I use volume ramp, either up or down on measure to muddy up the off timing. But that is not a good solution
Any suggestions on solving my 'sync ' issue on audio tracks with vocals in the SEQ ?
I usually fuss with this using Audacity but that is hit or miss.
I have a deadline to get this done by Tuesday morning, California time.
Thank you for the fast help, guys ! |
Honestly, I haven't uses TIME STRETCH on audio tracks, so can't really comment on that part. I've used it on samples and it was not very good quality. I actually heard the Audacity suggestion from you!
I don't know if your audio tracks run the whole length of the song and then part of it is off sync? Or are they short enough bits that you could just move them, like I do with these short files, in AUDIO EVENT EDIT (14:45 mark)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXuqPDJCqJE&t=885s
There are two other ways I would approach this. The first would be to INSERT a measure at the beginning of all tracks, except those particular audio tracks.
Go to TRACK PARAMETER - - DELAY settings and delay those particular audio tracks to the point where you like.
If those tracks run the length of the whole song, you could keep the first part, as is. Use the TRACK EDIT - - COPY TRACK function to duplicate those tracks. Adjust the duplicated tracks with the delay offset. You would have to use the mixer volume sliders to fade out the original tracks, when it comes to the part where they are out of sync. At that part, you would bring up the volume of the duplicate tracks, which are the delayed.
Second option requires knowledge of the sampler. Each song file has a sub folder for its audio tracks. Those tracks can be opened in the sampler, trimmed, assigned to a note (or notes), and made into a program. You could then just trigger the audio at the time you like. You could even edit the trigger note in the sequencer, so it goes right where you like.
To do the sample option, first go to your song file. If it's called BLISS.SNG, there will also be an audio folder, called BLISS_A. OPEN that folder.
If there are multiple songs in it, chose the correct song. OPEN it. You will see ATRACK_01, ATRACK_02, and so on. They represent the audio on Audio Track 1, 2, etc.
OPEN the desired Audio Track folder. Inside, you will see the actual 16 or 24 bit wave file. LOAD that wave to RAM (everything that goes to RAM becomes 16 bit).
Now, press the SAMPLE mode button. You can select that RAM based audio track in Trim, Loop, or Multisample modes. Personally, I would trim it right up to the point where the voice starts, so I have an instant on trigger. |
Always great to hear from you, Mike. I learn new stuff from you all the time.
I struggled to get Audio Edit to handle my timing or off beat audio vocal.
I suck at leaning a new technique while under a deadline/stress etc.
I have to fuss around with beat tick when I have more down time.
Anyway, my issue was getting the audio to begin at precise Beat 1 or Tick 1.0
in a measure. My audio fumbling with Audacity for the vocal was starting it
at Tick 1.5 or even worse , 4.3 from the prior measure.
IOW, either too early or a little late. The tempo is ok. Its starting the audio vocal in unison with other instruments starting in unison on Tick 1.0
of a measure.
The audio vocal was typically 3 or 4 measures long. So the vocal ' ended' satisfactorily.
I had 9 vocal phrases in the song. so 9 sets of 3 to 4 measures.
Not easy to draw a picture. YouTube would be a much better way to demo
I think I am over the hump. And I am ready to do a master, a final mix , and send the audio WAV to an important person.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 1:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| pete.m wrote: | Hi Greg,
It's quite a difficult one to give a clear answer to, without actually being there to work on the track.
Sometimes, altering the tempo via timestretching will cure one timing problem, but will create another - especially on longer samples/vocal takes, where the phrasing hasn't been bang on all the way through.
Mike's suggestions look good to me. If I was doing it, I am sure that I would end up cutting the sample into much shorter sections, and then lose a frustrating afternoon trying to make it something like I imagine it should be.
I suppose that doing fresh takes is out of the question, given the time constraint. Best of luck with it - hope it works out. |
Hi Pete, thank you for your interest. I know a YouTube would be more effective to demo what I was fussing with.
I gave up on time stretch.
my issue was getting the audio to begin at precise Beat 1 or Tick 1.0
in a measure. My audio fumbling with Audacity for the vocal was starting it
at Tick 1.5 or even worse , 4.3 from the prior measure.
IOW, either too early or a little late. The tempo is ok. Its starting the audio vocal in unison with other instruments starting in unison on Tick 1.0
of a measure.
The audio vocal was typically 3 or 4 measures long. So the vocal ' ended' satisfactorily.
I had 9 vocal phrases in the song. so 9 sets of 3 to 4 measures.
Bottom line, I used Audacity , chopped up the various audio phrases and got them to start at Tick 1.0 of a measure.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KK
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 1422
|
| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 1:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Personally, for things like time stretch or creating the best loops possible etc I use WaveLab. If you want to do it in the Kronos, did you try the stuff in the PG, page 666 (even though sounds scary) ? Here's a copy/paste below. Note that I've never tried that Kronos function so can't tell if it gives satisfactory results.
..................
The Time Stretch command will not be executed if “Allow Tempo” (Trim Dialog) is Off.
1. Use Track Select to select the track for which you want to execute the Time Stretch command.
2. Choose “Adjust Region to Song’s Tempo” to open the dialog box.
3. Use From Measure to select the first measure to which you want to apply Time Stretch, and use To End of Measure to select the last measure. (By default, From Measure and To End of Measure will be the range of measures you specified in the Track Edit page.)
4. If you want to apply Time Stretch to all audio tracks, check All Audio Tracks. If this is not checked, the Time Stretch command will be applied to the track you specified in Track Select.
5. Use “Quality” to specify the audio quality of the sample that is produced by the Time Stretch command. You can choose a setting in a range of 0–7. Although the result will depend on the type of sample, higher settings generally produce better results, but will take longer to execute. Since you can try this command as many times as you like, start with a value of about 4, and raise it little by little if necessary.
6. Press the OK button to execute the Time Stretch command, or press the Cancel button to cancel. Note: When you execute this command, new regions and WAVE files will be created, and file names and region names will be assigned automatically. The audio events will also be modified. Automation data will not be affected. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KK wrote: | Personally, for things like time stretch or creating the best loops possible etc I use WaveLab. If you want to do it in the Kronos, did you try the stuff in the PG, page 666 (even though sounds scary) ? Here's a copy/paste below. Note that I've never tried that Kronos function so can't tell if it gives satisfactory results.
..................
The Time Stretch command will not be executed if “Allow Tempo” (Trim Dialog) is Off.
1. Use Track Select to select the track for which you want to execute the Time Stretch command.
2. Choose “Adjust Region to Song’s Tempo” to open the dialog box.
3. Use From Measure to select the first measure to which you want to apply Time Stretch, and use To End of Measure to select the last measure. (By default, From Measure and To End of Measure will be the range of measures you specified in the Track Edit page.)
4. If you want to apply Time Stretch to all audio tracks, check All Audio Tracks. If this is not checked, the Time Stretch command will be applied to the track you specified in Track Select.
5. Use “Quality” to specify the audio quality of the sample that is produced by the Time Stretch command. You can choose a setting in a range of 0–7. Although the result will depend on the type of sample, higher settings generally produce better results, but will take longer to execute. Since you can try this command as many times as you like, start with a value of about 4, and raise it little by little if necessary.
6. Press the OK button to execute the Time Stretch command, or press the Cancel button to cancel. Note: When you execute this command, new regions and WAVE files will be created, and file names and region names will be assigned automatically. The audio events will also be modified. Automation data will not be affected. |
Thank you, KK , for digging this up from the manual.
I applied the steps in SEQ, on track 1, measures 14 thru 25.
That covers verse 1 with a vocal in my 5 minute SEQ song.
Ironically, using Time Stretch on those measures decreased the tempo
of the audio vocal. It resulted in an audible " draggy" quality.
I also experimented in sample quality, to 4 , to 7. etc. Neither was a tangible
improvement.
Bottom line, I need to let go of the SEQ + audacity, soon, and transition to Cubase and WaveLab.
since I am using more and more vocals.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Liviou2004
Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 1150
Location: France
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 9:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi there,
Here is a tuto from a french user, Coyote14, wich is really well made. He used the slice technique wich could be useful for you, Greg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rvlaupuMhU
You can use the subtitle in english. The tuto begins at 7:35. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you, Fred !
Your friend brings in his bass guitar sound as a sample.
he used Kronos sampling tools, inc time stretch etc.
To ' fix ' tempo etc.
It is a better approach, but I would have to get use to the various small fonts and arrows etc etc in the LCD.
I like Audacity since its a Big Screen {OMG} app on my Mac desktop.
I have been locked into using Audacity but hit a limitation in getting the precision I needed for my vocal audio file. To make it work 'precisely ' in my song.
I am at the point with adding vocals to my Songs that I need an integrated
software solution for recording. Same old story here.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KK
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 1422
|
| Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 1:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Greg,
I'm sure it is possible to do decent time stretching as well with the Kronos, but it might take longer and indeed it's tough too on my old eyes. FYI below is an example of the options in WaveLab for time stretching. You can more easily visualize the results and also options offer better precision either in terms of tempo, time or number of samples, etc.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Liviou2004
Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 1150
Location: France
|
| Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ok Greg, I see what you mean. One day, I placed a camera above the LCD display and watch the Kronos display directly on my Pc screen !! It worked, but quite annoying to set.
However, I think you could get more precise result in timestretching your vocal track step by step, phrase after phrase.
Perhaps you can try Recycle, metionned by Coyote ? You would get a full display on your Mac screen.
https://www.reasonstudios.com/recycle
But perhaps, the Wavelab tool would better suit you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KK wrote: | Hi Greg,
I'm sure it is possible to do decent time stretching as well with the Kronos, but it might take longer and indeed it's tough too on my old eyes. FYI below is an example of the options in WaveLab for time stretching. You can more easily visualize the results and also options offer better precision either in terms of tempo, time or number of samples, etc.
|
Hey KK, thank you for the screen shot.
My eyesight is also declining. I struggle with tiny fonts, etc etc.
Like you suggest, I require an easily visual these days.
I believe the $99 version runs standalone.
I am still on Cubase LE AI. Guessing wave lab doesn't run on LE AI ?
Its appears I need Cubase ? to integrate WaveLab.
Also looking around for the free demo D/L , the $99 version for Mac.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KK
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 1422
|
| Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 7:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I use an old standalone version of WaveLab, as I'm still running on Win XP.  I'm sure the new version is better, but I'm totally satisfied with the one I use, it already does everything I need. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Liviou2004
Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 1150
Location: France
|
| Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 7:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not working on Cubase LE AI, but, as far as I know it already includes Time Stretch tool they called "AudioWarp".
Greg, did you try it with your Vocal tracks ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
