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Kronos Combis vs Modx [Montage] Performances
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:17 am    Post subject: Kronos Combis vs Modx [Montage] Performances Reply with quote

Original Kronos [2011] has 512 original factory preloaded Combis.

Once you purchase Korg EX's [ pianos, strings, etc] we can add a few hundred additional Combis. Many of these Korg EXs are very nice.

[I don't know the exact # of K2 factory Preload Combis].

MODX [ which is new for me] has a staggering 2,227 Factory Performances.

This is an almost unfair compare to Kronos since MODX/Montage runs in Performance mode. Many factory Perf's have 1 or 2 parts.

If we quick layer or quick split any program in Kronos , we can quickly have hundreds more 'custom ' or user Combis.

To be clear I am talking about Factory level Combis and Factory level Performances.

With me so far ? I know, on shaky ground.

Even with MODX staggering 2227 Perf's, its my current opinion, to prefer a large group of Kronos Combis over a group of MODX performances.

Sure, the theory is that ' more ' is always better. Not so sure about that.

I think " Better " is the winner.

I don't profess love for every Kronos Combi. I estimate about 25% of the Combis are sweet. And from there, they get streamlined, simplified, mangled, transformed etc etc etc.

With MODX, I have about 60 ' favorite ' performances.
So far.

I guess my point here is that 'most ' of the MODX Perfornances don't thrill my Muse. Its early, in my MODX ownership, but this seems to be the pattern.

What I observe and this is very preliminary , is that Yamaha skipped a decade
with the Performances. Lets say the '90's '.

Whereas, Kronos [ actually Oasys] is all over the 90's for keyboard based music.
with many of their Combis. I like that.

Maybe much of this is due to the Karma influence on Kronos/Oasys combis.

MODX does not have Karma. And it [almost] never will.

With that, I am getting into MODX Bass and Guitar ARPs , and adding drum ARPs.
Its more work, for song foundation. With that stunning AWM2/FM quality to MODX, I believe this is going to be years of music production fun.

Feel free to disagree with my points and/or what I like about both amazing keyboards.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Greg,

As you know, I'm a new Montage user. I'm discovering this wonderful synth.
The sound precision and quality is astonishing.

Like you, I don't mind the quantity of Performances but the quality.

I'm sure the Montage and the Kronos will be fully compatible and complementary.

My Subjective opinion :
For this beginning, I've found that guitars, solo wind and brass sounds are far better in the Montage. Pehaps, thanks to the XA sytem (Expanded Articulation).

Vintage Electric Pianos a little better in the Kronos (a bit "warmer").

Concerning the Performances, of course it depends on each player. I do find some of them are so inspiring and easy to work with.
The ModX/Montage is more Dance/Techno oriented in the factory perf. But there are some very goo Jazz and Chill.

Concerning the Karma, ModX/Montage don't get it but they have other posibilities approaching an arranger.
So the Karma is more creative but the Yamaha are more immediate and easy to play : --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC-2CPgNOPY&t=849s

We could imagine, the Karma could drive some ModX/Montage parts !!

Concerning the sound design, the posibilities are absolutely huge in both case.

Finally, we could compare the prices of the sounds banks !! Mot of the Kronos sound banks are out of price. For the MoX/Montage there are affordable.

Here is a very interesting Ambient sound bank : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9zshCfbG5U
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think "more is better" is even relevant anymore. Back in the day when we saved up for the latest and greatest piece of hardware to get the sounds we want, this was definitely an attraction. But these days, patches, sounds etc are prevalent and overwhelming.
I spend more time exploring all the amazing Vst creations than the internal sounds of most of my hardware. That being said, out of all the programs/performances I have in hardware, I have a few precious favourites in each, which I deem worth having that hardware for.

I don't even make comparisons between my Kronos and Montage, as the favourites I have in each are not in competition, as they are so different from each other. I wouldn't choose one over the other nowadays, even if I had to choose the best keybed. I enjoy the luxury of playing each for their own strengths.

I do however, when not using the Kronos sounds, gravitate toward a controller which has a fast boot up time, to more closely match the computer boot up time.The Montage has been useful there, but lately I'm playing a lot more piano, and I find the Montage Balanced Hammer action keybed a bit of a compromise, as is the Kronos. So I enjoy the fast boot up time, and action of the Kawai MP11SE currently. My point is, there is no one piece of hardware which will very satisfy all uses...my belief into the future too...but they are all excellent at the uses they were best designed for.


I might add, the SoundMondo site does add an enormous forum of free user programs for Montage/MODX. Other than individual offerings, the Kronos is limited to professional paid content.
I've always wondered why that sort of idea never took off for the Kronos. Perhaps the online direct loading capability was the key to the Yamahas success?
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Kilroy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never had a use for any pre-load combis, other than goofing around with them for a few minutes when i first get a keyboard. I have never been able to use any of them in my own music or in performing. Maybe I am missing something. I always figured there were just there for store demo purposes to move more units. Do you guys use them when performing or in your songs?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilroy wrote:
I have never had a use for any pre-load combis, other than goofing around with them for a few minutes when i first get a keyboard. I have never been able to use any of them in my own music or in performing. Maybe I am missing something. I always figured there were just there for store demo purposes to move more units. Do you guys use them when performing or in your songs?


as I mentioned, several Kronos combis are a source of inspiration for about 70% of my songs that I record.

In particular, I use the Karma influenced drum rhythms as a starting point.

my " Flight of Vultures " was inspired by 1 of the bass guitar combi's:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/flight-of-vultures

I do very few cover songs.
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Last edited by GregC on Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alamo



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have a Kronos + MODX and I love them both! but what I can't understand is why yamaha won't let us set the midi channel for each part.... it outreagous! Very Happy
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Peas&Carrots
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently borrowed a Montage for a few days so probably not long enough to make a full comparison.

As already mentioned here Yamaha is generally better at guitars, wind & brass (same as Motif)

Yamaha is locked down in terms of the arps which is a real shame. Midi also has limitations. As you say many of the performances are just one or two sounds - similar to programs on Kronos.

The FM-X is basically a DX7. I found it difficult to understand and would probably mostly import patches. Then again the Kronos engines are also difficult to manipulate unless you are a seasoned programmer.

The Karma concept looks good on paper but these days you really need the software to get the most out of it and not many sound designers have bothered with that.

Montage is more modern feeling especially in white! but the underlying sense is it is restricted and Bad Mister is having a hard time of things with users wanting an upgraded Motif. Kronos is hard to understand if you don't use it regularly...

Both are slight improvements over legacy gear. Progress in the keyboard world seems to be glacial...

Filing systems need to be modernised to allow uncomplicated and holistic loading of user programs etc. This is probably the source of the majority of the frustration. User interfaces need improving too.

I'm not buying anything new for the foreseeable...
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeltaJockey wrote:
I do

e.The Montage has been useful there, but lately I'm playing a lot more piano, and I find the Montage Balanced Hammer action keybed a bit of a compromise, as is the Kronos. So I enjoy the fast boot up time, and action of the Kawai MP11SE currently.




I also prefer piano. I am adapting ok to the MODX 88 key bed action.
I do all my finger exercises on it.

It feels very close to Kronos 88 RH3.

I think both are ' hybrids ' . Not heavy and not light. In between or hybrid IMO.

I am currently struggling with Cubase AI and MODX connectivity ,

the MODX templates are not showing up as choices for " recording ". It seems
my UR 44 has a vice grip as those templates show up.

I hope to solve this very soon.
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:


I am currently struggling with Cubase AI and MODX connectivity ,



Can't help you there I'm afraid, I started looking at Cubase AI, when I first bought the MODX8 too, I was a bit irritated by the complexity and limits of the activation and software ilock business too.

I have so many introductory copies of all the DAWs, from various gear I've purchased, that I usually install it to check it out, then delete it again, because I've been using Logic for so long now, there's little point in learning another DAW. They generally all have similar work flows in the end.
I'm surprised with your Mac, that you haven't been using Logic. Being native to the Mac, I find the functionality very easy to deal with. And I like that I only ever had to buy it once, many years ago, and I just install it on as many Macs as I wish.
Haven't used Garageband for many years either.

In the end, if you plan spending considerable time using the DAW, whichever one that is, it's worth sticking with the one you get to know.

Chris
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The companions I can't live without: Kronos2-88, Kawai Acoustic Grand, Kawai MP11SE, Yamaha Montage8,
Other important stuff: Kronos2-73, Integra7, Studiologic NC2X, Casio PX S3000, NI Komplete Ultimate 11, Sonuscore Elysion and Orchestra, Pianoteq, Experimenta Due.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's one point about the very subject of this thread :

- Managing Combi / Prog in the Kronos can be a real misery for the beginners. As soon as you modifiy the place of a Prog or replace it with another Prog, all Combinations which use this Prog are modified without we know it !

- Although I've been a bit destabilized at the beginning, the Performance system of the ModX/Montage is finally far more simple and secure : there's only one type of sound : the Performance which contains either one Part (like Kronos Program) or several Parts (like Kronos Combi). The Parts are always edited inside the Performance. So there's no risk to loose the Peformance sound.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeltaJockey wrote:
GregC wrote:


I am currently struggling with Cubase AI and MODX connectivity ,



Can't help you there I'm afraid, I started looking at Cubase AI, when I first bought the MODX8 too, I was a bit irritated by the complexity and limits of the activation and software ilock business too.

I have so many introductory copies of all the DAWs, from various gear I've purchased, that I usually install it to check it out, then delete it again, because I've been using Logic for so long now, there's little point in learning another DAW. They generally all have similar work flows in the end.
I'm surprised with your Mac, that you haven't been using Logic. Being native to the Mac, I find the functionality very easy to deal with. And I like that I only ever had to buy it once, many years ago, and I just install it on as many Macs as I wish.


Chris


hi Chris, I started recording 4 years ago, and did not warm to Logic's work flow. We are all different on preferences

I don't like garage band either- I think its a clunker.

Anyway, I sank in to the SEQ and never looked back. But I am over due for a DAW for future recording. cubase start up misery is common from what I read/hear.
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tunaman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos Combis vs Modx [Montage] Performances Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Original Kronos [2011] has 512 original factory preloaded Combis.

Once you purchase Korg EX's [ pianos, strings, etc] we can add a few hundred additional Combis. Many of these Korg EXs are very nice.

[I don't know the exact # of K2 factory Preload Combis].

MODX [ which is new for me] has a staggering 2,227 Factory Performances.



Some reason you’re discounting the factory Programs installed on the Kronos? There are over 2,000, in addition to the Combi’s you mentioned.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos Combis vs Modx [Montage] Performances Reply with quote

tunaman wrote:
GregC wrote:
Original Kronos [2011] has 512 original factory preloaded Combis.

Once you purchase Korg EX's [ pianos, strings, etc] we can add a few hundred additional Combis. Many of these Korg EXs are very nice.

[I don't know the exact # of K2 factory Preload Combis].

MODX [ which is new for me] has a staggering 2,227 Factory Performances.



Some reason you’re discounting the factory Programs installed on the Kronos? There are over 2,000, in addition to the Combi’s you mentioned.


discounting ?

I did state Kronos 1, 9 years ago had 512[ maybe it was 792], out of the box, thats the history.

Korg stepped up and added more Combis'. Plus the EX's added hundreds more

Our machines have combi differences. I didn't take the time to give an exact count of my Combi total.

If you have 2000, I guess you win Very Happy
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tunaman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are over 2,000 Programs in addition to the Combi's you are referring to. Isn't this the case with your K1?[/i]
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GregC
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tunaman wrote:
There are over 2,000 Programs in addition to the Combi's you are referring to. Isn't this the case with your K1?[/i]


we seem to have a topic fly by.

My topic was about Kronos Combi's and MODX Perf. Its in the title and in the 1st sentence.

Yes, I probably have over 2000 Programs. But I was not deep diving on Programs, their #'s, their history, etc etc.

Thanks
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