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Preload.KSC - Programs, Combis and Set Lists GONE!
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Basspig



Joined: 29 Jan 2020
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:00 am    Post subject: Preload.KSC - Programs, Combis and Set Lists GONE! Reply with quote

I was experimenting with a new sound library and allowed the new library to overwrite memory.

No problem, right? I just need only re load the file where I saved everything as PRELOAD-ALL.KSC.

Nope. Most of my samples are missing. My Set Lists are gone. Even if I go to the banks where I had specific programs and combis, they are all overwritten with some synthesizer sounds, maybe factory defaults.

Funny thing is, before I loaded this new set of programs, I could power off the instrument and it would come back every time I powered it on, with all set lists, combis and programs.

So it seems nothing is saved in PRELOAD-ALL.KSC after all.

When I saved it back in February, I used Save All and selected Set All so that programs, combis. drum kits, wave sequences, user GEs, global settings, drum track patterns, and set lists were all selected to be saved. Since February, any changes I made, I always went to the upper corner menu and chose "write program" and "write setlist" to save my changes. Apparently this saves nothing.

My understanding is that Save All is supposed to allow the instrument to return to that state when that KSC is loaded.

So why is the instrument behaving like it's set to factory defaults? Even the edits to programs, such as reverberation effects are gone. I've lost months of programming!
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tunaman
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Joined: 28 Nov 2019
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to say, you only saved the Program/Combi/Setlist data to memory - you failed to save the changes to disk using the Save PCG or Save All functions.
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Basspig



Joined: 29 Jan 2020
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand. What is "save all" then? And no, my set lists are reverted to some factory default. They are gone, too.

What am I saving when I "write program"? I've been doing that for the past 7 months, and when I power on, the instrument 'remembers' my saved changes.

However, after loading another sound pack and letting it clear everything, I find that I have nothing back when I load the PRELOAD-ALL.KSC.

Looking at the Global Basic menu, the memory still shows 40MB free, like it did before I tried this new library, so I suspect the samples are in RAM, but many of them won't play.

Even pianos, where I had made changes to EQ and reverb, are reverted back to their factory defaults.

Back on my Kurzweil K2600RS, when I do a "save all" it saves EVERYTHING and I can always return the instrument to the state I left it in on that save.

Why is that not the case with the Kronos? I can never be sure if I'm pretending to save my data or really saving it. It looks like everything was pretending to save since February, because none of the work I've done since February came back when I did the preload and attempt to restore the instrument to the state where I had last done a "save" operation. I was certain I was saving to some file on disc, as the Disk LED would flash when I did a save setlist, or a save program. Where is this file? Where is that being saved to?

And why would Korg design a system so confusing that months of work cannot be saved with a simple save command, resulting in the loss of all that programming?

I love this instrument, but if I cannot have it save the state of the programs and samples, combis and setlists, it's of no use to me. Right now, I have an unusable instrument.
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Liviou2004
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Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 1007
Location: Lorrez-Le-Bocage - France

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

The original factory files are called PRELOAD, not PRELOAD-ALL. (unless you have done a previous All Save with this name)

Oriignal Factory sounds are saved in the FACTORY folder in the SSD.

Yes, when you do "Save All", it will save ALL : PCG + Songs + Samples.

(See Parameter Guide, page 857.)

I suggest you to see the clear diagram of all the different files of the Kronos : page 828.
You will see there what happens when you do a Save All.

--------------

When you load the PRELOAD.PCG, you will be asked for the KSC files too. You must say Yes, in order to have all the sounds effective.
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Kronos 2 73, Yamaha Montage 7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Moog Grandmother, Behringer Neutron, Studiologic Sledge 2
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Basspig



Joined: 29 Jan 2020
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know about the PRELOAD.KSC being the factory files, but my changes and new sample sets and libraries that I build were then saved as PRELOAD-ALL.KSC back in late February.
Since then, I've been doing incremental saves by using the dropdown menu in upper right. For instance, I built many set lists in April and May and each time I added stuff, I did a "write set list". The disk light flashes when I do that, so I am under the impression it's writing my changes back to disc, otherwise my setups would not survive power down each night. Isn't that the case? When I select "write" command, am I not saving the changes permanently?
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theescapist



Joined: 01 Jul 2011
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To preface this, I’ve only read the manual and a few posts about this since I haven’t tried swapping sounds this way myself. But doesn’t the Kronos use PRELOAD.KSC or whatever as the main / current source of everything unless you update the auto load settings somewhere in global? In that case all your saves after PRELOAD-ALL.KSC probably went back into PRELOAD and as soon as you cleared it, you lost all recent changes?

My understanding is the Save All is just a snapshot in time rather than a “every future change will go into this file from now on”
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tunaman
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Joined: 28 Nov 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would strongly urge you, and anyone else who hasn't already done so, to read through the Quick Start, Operation and Parameter guides, and keep a copy handy for future reference.

The Kronos is an extremely advanced workstation, not just a synthesizer or electronic keyboard, and as such it is incumbent on the owner to be familiar with the technical idiosyncrasies and processes relative to their particular usage.

In particular and relevant to this discussion, I'll draw your attention to the following sections:

Quick Start Guide - page 24: Saving and loading data
Operations Guide - page 199: Loading & saving data, and creating CDs
Operations Guide - page 183: Automatically loading sample data
Parameter Guide - page 827: Disk mode
Parameter Guide - page 1161: Disk mode and file format information


The disk save procedures work well. I recently bought a second K2 73 and was able to mirror the contents from my first K2 73 easily. I now keep them in sync - I make changes to the first K2 at home, and them take a USB memory stick and update the second with my changes.
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Sweat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Live Music Capital of the World

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When selecting the upper corner menu "write program", "write program", or "write setlist" to save changes, you are only saving to internal memory,
as Korg calls it. Yes, this automatically saves to disk in order to load again when Kronos is restarted.
But it is only written to a hidden location, -not to PRELOAD, PRELOAD-ALL or any accessable .pcg or .ksc file.

If you want to load a new sound library that overwrites current programs/combis/setlists,
never forget to first Save PCG or Save All to a file that you name yourself (such as PRELOAD-ALL).
In fact, do this often.
This will save your current programs of "internal memory", so you can reload later.
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theescapist



Joined: 01 Jul 2011
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweat wrote:
When selecting the upper corner menu "write program", "write program", or "write setlist" to save changes, you are only saving to internal memory,
as Korg calls it. Yes, this automatically saves to disk in order to load again when Kronos is restarted.
But it is only written to a hidden location, -not to PRELOAD, PRELOAD-ALL or any accessable .pcg or .ksc file.

If you want to load a new sound library that overwrites current programs/combis/setlists,
never forget to first Save PCG or Save All to a file that you name yourself (such as PRELOAD-ALL).
In fact, do this often.
This will save your current programs of "internal memory", so you can reload later.


Nice, this is great to know
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tunaman
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Joined: 28 Nov 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One suggestion for the OP - you mentioned an issue with the samples, so be sure to take a look at the KSC Auto-Load page in the Global settings to ensure that the correct KSC files are being loaded.
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Basspig



Joined: 29 Jan 2020
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweat wrote:
When selecting the upper corner menu "write program", "write program", or "write setlist" to save changes, you are only saving to internal memory,
as Korg calls it. Yes, this automatically saves to disk in order to load again when Kronos is restarted.
But it is only written to a hidden location, -not to PRELOAD, PRELOAD-ALL or any accessable .pcg or .ksc file.

If you want to load a new sound library that overwrites current programs/combis/setlists,
never forget to first Save PCG or Save All to a file that you name yourself (such as PRELOAD-ALL).
In fact, do this often.
This will save your current programs of "internal memory", so you can reload later.


Thank you. A hidden file location. So that explains why it maintains between power downs, the state of the instrument.

I spent the past two days doing a LOT of experimentation. What I have found is that indeed if we are to save anything so as to have it re loadable, we have to go into the Disk menu and choose the Save All command. Now I know. I wish I knew that two days ago.

After eight or so hours reconstructing as much as I could remember, I've gotten some core programs back to functional. But there are still a lot of Karma and drum programs that are no longer associated with the programs as I had configured them over the months. And the songs I recorded in the sequencer are all gone. Those can never be recovered. So much for using the internal sequencer instead of Cakewalk Sonar, my usual sequencer. At least when I save a MIDI file on the PC, I know it's saved.

Kronos is a complex machine. Some things work a treat, albeit after researching heavily on the topic. For example, I loaded a new set of sound libraries, but they could not go into their default banks because I have other stuff there and doing so would break many dependencies. So I found out the Global menu has a way to change references to banks so that combis can work again by referencing new banks where the programs were installed. That's a time saver. I still wish I knew of a way to copy multiple set list entries and paste them all at once to a different setlist. Having to copy one at a time and navigate that touchscreen, paste, then save, then navigate back to the other set list to copy the next... there has got to be a better way.

It's more difficult for myself, one of advanced age with failing eyesight, to navigate the small screen. Would have been great when I was a much younger man with good eyes, but today, reading anything smaller than letters 1/2" tall is near impossible for me. But I'll manage somehow!

Thanks to all the folks who took the time to point out resources and reference information bits that would take me hours or days to stumble across.
I've got some rebuilding to do, but with my new knowledge, I can do it better this time around.
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KK
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Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 847

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is three freeware if you prefer to work at your computer screen to manage PCG (programs/combis/global) files. Simply google and get the Kronos Editor, PCG Tools and TidyKronos. There is also another one called Onksor to manage Setlists. Hope this helps.
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GregC
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

other than the PC tools mentioned above, I recommend some steps to compensate for poor reading eye sight

First of all, there is no question that Kronos has tiny fonts, and the LCD only goes so far. If you can't read the detail, I can't imagine operating Kronos efficiency or with accuracy.

That said, what I do is have/use 2 is different sets of RX reading glasses

In addition, i have a standard magnifying glass and 2 other [ 1 very small, the other 5" x 8" ] flat magnifiers. What is cumbersome about this stuff, is that i have to move them around, to tap on the LCD.

In addition, I use the onboard controls as much as possible, and work mostly in 1 mode.

After solving the vision issue, accuracy is gained, and a smooth work flow/accurate navigation is the consistent result. This assumes basic Kronos
education per manuals and Korg instructional videos. There are no short cuts IMO.

Unfortunately Kronos does not have 4 directional cursor buttons [ MODX/Montage has them]. Plus I have seen nothing from Korg to enhance the LCD/navigation experience.

Fortunately, new keyboards , Fantom, MODX/Montage have excellent displays.
Roland and Yamaha have knocked it out of the park.
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tunaman
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Joined: 28 Nov 2019
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Unfortunately Kronos does not have 4 directional cursor buttons [ MODX/Montage has them]. Plus I have seen nothing from Korg to enhance the LCD/navigation experience.


Fortunately you can attach a USB keyboard and use it for input, as well as using the directional arrows.

I use mine quite often.
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GregC
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tunaman wrote:
GregC wrote:
Unfortunately Kronos does not have 4 directional cursor buttons [ MODX/Montage has them]. Plus I have seen nothing from Korg to enhance the LCD/navigation experience.


Fortunately you can attach a USB keyboard and use it for input, as well as using the directional arrows.

I use mine quite often.


good point, while you are playing the keys, where is your USB keyboard ?
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