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karmathanever
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Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10402
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 Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:10 pm Post subject: Quick question for you Tyros/Genos owners.... |
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Hey guys
This has been an option in the PSR/Tyros range and also the Genos, but could someone please explain it to me:-
Chord Fingering:- "AI FINGERED"
The manuals all say "Basically the same as Fingered, with the exception that less than three notes can be played to indicate the chords (based on the previously played chord, etc.)."
SO what do they mean here - if you play and want a Cmaj by pressing just the "C" in LOWER the style plays the ACCs almost like on a single note
...same if you want Cm and you press the C and Eb - you get the ACCs playing around those 2 notes and NOT a full minor backing
What do they mean then by "...less than three notes can be played to indicate the chords (based on the previously played chord, etc.)
I heavily rely on the PA4X "FINGERED 1 NOTE" setting but it would seem that Yamaha has never supported this - shame because Korg, Casio, Roland and Ketron have it.
Thanks for your help
Pete 
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ckobu
Junior Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2019
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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AI Fingered can be used in a way to build harmony from two or more tones.
C + E = C maj
C + Eb = C min
...
or
C + E + G = C maj
C + Eb + G = C min
...
or
C +E + G + B = Cm7
.....
AI Fingered is not used to play with a single tone.
The Single Finger mod is used for this.
The Single Finger does not work like Korg or Ketron.
When we press the (A) base tone and any black key below (A + Ab or A + Gb or A + Eb) we will get a (A) minor.
When we press the base tone and any white key below (A + G or A + F ...), we get (A) 7th. |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: Quick question for you Tyros/Genos owners.... |
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| karmathanever wrote: | .. Chord Fingering:- "AI FINGERED"
What do they mean then by ...less than three notes can be played to indicate the chords ... |
"Less than three notes can be played to indicate the chords" from Yamaha means the same you can read about Korgs advanced / expert recognition:
This mode is an extension of the Fingered 2, adding rootless and slashed chord recognition, often used in jazz, fusion, modern pop and light music. This type of chord recognition is very useful to play piano chords typical of jazz piano players. You don’t always need to play the root note, doubling the note already played by the bass track.
When the SPLIT indicator is turned off, play at least three notes to compose a chord. With this mode, you can play rootless and slashed chords, often used in jazz, fusion or modern pop.
When the SPLIT indicator is turned on, play one or more notes for a chord to be recognized. If you play a single note, a ‘root+8ve’ will be played. If you play a fifth, a ‘root+5th’ chord will be played.
*
Comparisons of chord fingering types with Yamaha (SingleFinger, MultiFinger, Fingered, FingeredOnBass, Full Keyboard, AI Fingered, AI FullKeybord) and the chord types that can be played with them show no advantages / disadvantages for either Yamaha or Korg.
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10402
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Thanks guys
Hope Yamaha include the fingered chord recognition one day - that's one show-stopper (of several) for me
Pete
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Simke
Joined: 11 May 2020
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| The advantage with Yamaha is that you can have different fingering in each song (Registration Memory), which unfortunately you can't with Korg (SongBook) .... and this applies not only to fingering but also to other things from Global Mode .... pity !! |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10402
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Yes true, but I personally do not need different fingering technology for different songs - and Yamaha's "registration" technology is another show-stopper for me - but it's all personal at the end of the day. If Yamaha had intelligent chord fingering (one or more notes) like most other arranger brands, I would reconsider getting one again (seriously!!).
Sorry, not intending to start a Yamaha vs Korg thing here...
Pete
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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| karmathanever wrote: |
Sorry, not intending to start a Yamaha vs Korg thing here...
Pete |
I don't know. I kind of like the Yamaha vs Korg thing. It reminds me a bit of Spy vs. Spy, in a way, and I dig that 
Instead of these little incremental additions that the companies do, it would be really neat to see one of these companies just spank the others with something wild that has everything at a great price and then see how the others play 'catch-up'...
With that said, the PA700 was a pretty big upgrade over the PA600 (according to my research) and that is why I bought one.
Grace,
Harry
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ckobu
Junior Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2019
Posts: 61
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10402
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for that link.
As said above, very similar to PA4X advanced fingering.
So there's no Yamaha equivalent to Korg's "Fingered 1 note"
Cheers
Pete
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ckobu
Junior Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2019
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Yamaha is constantly working to improve keyboards. The new PSR SX 600 has been given the new Smart Chord option, and the same option already exists on all PSR E series models. Maybe she's similar to Korg's "Fingered 1 note"
This is a quote from the manual.
| Quote: | If you want to fully enjoy playing in various Styles but don’t know how to play the appropriate chords, set the
Chord Fingering type to Smart Chord. This lets you control Styles with just a single finger, as long as you
know the key of the music you’re playing—even if you don’t know any chord fingering such as major, minor,
diminished and so on. Appropriate chords suited for the music genre will sound whenever you press a single
note, as if you were playing the “right” chords.
Try out the Smart Chord feature with the following sample score. Simply play the root notes of the chords
indicated in this score with your left hand as you play the melody with your right hand, and listen to how the
chords with their notes and voicings match the music genre you’ve set.
....
This chart shows the specific Smart Chords of the various types for the key of C and its relative minor, A
minor.
This is just an example for the key of C; chords for the other 11 keys will change accordingly. See examples
for F major (Pop) and E minor (Jazz) below.
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This option appeared recently and is not in the Tyros series or Genos. Yamaha has a practice of adding (trying out) new features to cheaper models and then incorporating the same things into more expensive keyboards. Maybe the same thing happens with this Smart Chord option.
Interestingly, the new cheap model PSR SX 600 has a couple more advanced options that do not exist in Genos. One such option for playing in the left hand is Unison & Accent, it is very usable. Maybe some Genos 2 gets this feature. Or the audio interface that also exists in the PSR SX600.[/quote] |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:56 am Post subject: Chord detection Yamaha vs Korg |
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| karmathanever wrote: | | .. there's no Yamaha equivalent to Korg's "Fingered 1 note" ... |
When the SPLIT indicator is turned ON Korg's Fingered 1 Note play one or more notes to compose a chord. A full Major chord will be recognized even if only a single note is played.
When the SPLIT indicator is turned OFF, with Fingered 1 Note you play at least three notes to compose a chord (chord detection automatically use Fingered 3 notes).
*
Also I do not intending to start a Yamaha vs Korg thing here, but same with Fingered1 Note happens with MultiFinger of Yamaha.
It automatically detects Single Finger OR Fingered chord fingering, so you can play one ore more notes to compose a chord with Split ON and also full Major chord is recognized with only a single note is played. Multifinger automatically changes to chord detection of Fingered chord in case Split OFF (left part is turned off ).
So with Multi Finger you either can use type of fingering without having to switch fingering types of chord detection as you do with Fingered 1 note - the result is the same.
**
| karmathanever wrote: | | ... do not need different fingering technology for different songs ... |
Also with Korg's you need different fingering technology for different songs and that depends on what kind of chord detection you prefer for your song.
There are different functions you can realize with "Advanced / Expert" and there are others you can not realize with them, but only with "Fingered3 Notes".
Advanced/Expert mode is for rootless and slashed chord recognition, where to play root note is not necessary, because already played back by bass track.
This is useful to play piano chords typical of jazz piano players. If you prefer a playing technique in which the left hand is supposed to play one and two-part counter-melodies with LOWER sounds on the right hand - this is not possible with Advanced / Expert.
That is because two-part fingerings notes will change the chords instead to realize playing two-voice counter-melodies with lower sound. There are to find numerous YouTube videos with Korg Pa1000 by Alois Müller, made with this technique via Fingered3 chord recognition and Split = ON.
That only can be done with Fingered3 and it works without switching to full chord scanning, because with full chord scanning a lower sound for counter melody is not possible to be played separately.
*
Except for the rootless and slash chord recognition of the Advanced / Expert this mode will recognize some chords (no3r, no3rdno5th, <no>) with different functions, that can not be realized with another Chord Recognition like Fingered3 mode selected.
So I think also with Korg it is necessary to know and use different fingering technologies for different songs - unless you dispense the diversity that different recognition modes makes possible.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10402
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | same with Fingered1 Note happens with MultiFinger of Yamaha.
It automatically detects Single Finger OR Fingered chord fingering, so you can play one ore more notes to compose a chord with Split ON and also full Major chord is recognized with only a single note is played. |
I was very excited when I read this at the time I owned my Tyros. This fingering mode is extremely ridiculous IMHO and does not resemble the Korg's "Fingered 1 note".
Yes, you can get a full major chord by playing one note but if you want to play a minor with 2 notes (root and minor-3rd) the Yamaha switches to "SINGLE FINGER MODE" which is quite mental. E.g. play C + Eb on the Korg and you get Cm - in multi fingered mode on the Yamaha you get Eb7. One needs copious amounts of alcohol  in order to use this mixed-fingering.
Why is this important to me? Well I am far from a brilliant player and sometimes if I have to play a series of quick-change chords I find the "Fingered 1 note" great for quickly slipping in fast minors, major-7ths etc....
Come on Yamaha - you managed to at last get a joystick and touchscreen after all these years - now have a look at some more great things found in the other manufacturers' arrangers....
Take care
Pete
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ckobu
Junior Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2019
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Pete
The Smart Chord I wrote about is exactly what you need. C + Eb = C minor
I don’t want to defend Yamaha but the logic they use for Single Fingered may be this. One who cannot or does not know how to play a three-tone chord probably does not have enough musical knowledge. He doesn't know which tones, say, G # minor or Db minor consist of. It is enough for him to press the base tone (G # or Db) and any black key below. The same principle applies to the 7th. Below the base tone, press any white key. If you want to simplify with one key, then this approach is perfectly suited for maximum effect. Is not it so?
I think Casio uses the same method as well. |
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karmathanever
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Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10402
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ckobu wrote: | | I don’t want to defend Yamaha but the logic they use for Single Fingered may be this. One who cannot or does not know how to play a three-tone chord probably does not have enough musical knowledge. He doesn't know which tones, say, G # minor or Db minor consist of. It is enough for him to press the base tone (G # or Db) and any black key below. The same principle applies to the 7th. Below the base tone, press any white key. If you want to simplify with one key, then this approach is perfectly suited for maximum effect. Is not it so? |
Hi ckobu
Thanks for your input here.
I agree totally - for anyone who does not know how to form chords (triads and more) then the simple basic "mechanical" SINGLE-FINGERED is a great solution.
I do know my chords and love the fact that I can perform fast changes confidently with Korg's Fingered-1-note by occasionally getting away with 1 and 2 note-chords.
I also play a lot of inverted chords too.
SINGLE-FINGERED is a mechanical (not musical) method of playing only majors, minors, sevenths and minor-7ths and so definitely not for me.
Casio, Roland, Korg all support the "mechanical" SINGLE-FINGERED option and they all have the equivalent to Korg's Fingered-1-note too but Yamaha seemingly still does not.
So with Fingered-1-note I can play chords with one note (obviously majors) or more (meaning I can play a major with 1, 2, 3 or more notes or a minor with 2, 3 or more notes).
The reason I started this post was because I recently considered Genos as a second keyboard. I've been out of touch with Genos for a while and was wondering if Yamaha had implemented an intelligent "1-or-more-note" chord recognition option like on most other arrangers. I am very familiar with Tyros and have actually played the Genos but could never figure out this issue with chord recognition. I was hoping that there was a way Genos could do this but it seems not. The manual is not very explanatory.
Thanks again for replying.
Pete
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Korghelper
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 584
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes I wonder if the effort to learn proprietary fingering systems is that much less than learning a full fingered chord..!
One thing about learning full fingering... you don’t have to unlearn it if you move to another make of arranger 🤪 It works on them all. 🤔 |
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