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Why would they have to rewrap the Kronos when they could have just kept selling it?
Beats me. Ask them. Many Kronos buyers have the same question. I'm not on KORG's product management team.
apex wrote:
The keybeds are the same. And that's directly from James at Korg.
Aftertouch. That's the word you're looking for. Now go read those threads.
apex wrote:
I disagree that a keyboard MUST have a linear sequencer to be considered a workstation.... You gotta be like SUPER old to even think that's accurate. (I don't mean that disrespectfully either)... Just saying stuff has changed alot.
Words have meanings. If anything that can string together polyphonic clips is now a workstation, then a whole host of grooveboxes are suddenly workstations including an army of electribes. What distinguishes a workstation? The presence of a keyboard? No. The clue is in the word: workstation. The whole market segment came about because of the idea that a composer could do with an M1 what would previously have taken a set of synths, and effects units, and tape machines, and splicing tools. Even disco used things like long stringer notes that just hung around to add a top layer, and disco's big time was way before the M1 even made the scene. If you cap the measures per clip, take that very basic function off the table because it is no longer possible. The same applies to other genres; half of Tangerine Dream's output would have been impossible, or extremely difficult to do. Deciding simply for your marketing convenience that something that doesn't meet that criterion is somehow a workstation is cool; now we can have a different segment: things-that-apex-thinks-are-workstations-but-aren't-actually-fit-for-purpose. That's a little wordy - perhaps we could call them groovesynths instead? Or grooveboards; grooveboxes with keyboards?
apex wrote:
The clips length is now 64. Double what you referenced....
OK, so their manual is out of date, so sue me. Doesn't change the basic problem.
apex wrote:
Yeah....dance music or not.... The music will still have sections.... And if not just combine two clips... Now your section is twice as long. There are ways.
There is a whole world of music out there of which you appear to be unaware. I don't quite know how to tell you this, but there are situations where "if not just combine two clips" is not a functionally adequate answer, besides being a completely unnecessary workflow-breaker. This is in fact one of the reasons for many media composers shying away from clip-oriented DAWs such as Ableton.
apex wrote:
But then again, new technology is not for everyone.
Sure. Especially not when it is measurably functionally inferior to the predecessor. I feel no loyalty to any music equipment manufacturer, and I feel totally free to point out weaknesses and misleading advertising when I see them. It's not rocket science.
apex wrote:
But this is a perfect example of there not being a perfect keyboard. There going to always be something that people can and will complain about. Even if it's the color. Lol.
Can I also add: no deceptive branding? That would be nice. I mean, while we're wishing here.
apex wrote:
I think this is a great time for the keyboard industry. But that's just me.... I'm sure I'm not alone though.
I agree! Keyboards galore! Magnificent, rampant, glorious, turgid keyboards parading across the scene! Hail keyboards!
Workstations from the big three? Less so. Key word: workstations.
Right now the kings of the workstation that I see are Akai Professional, and Kurzweil. KORG hasn't brought anything new to the scene since almost a decade ago, Yamaha is confused about what a workstation is, compared to an arranger, Roland has given up trying. Even Casio is nearer the mark. Maybe this is old-fashioned thinking, and the last few spavined dinosaurs stumbling into the yawning maw of oblivion are the only ones to adhere to it, but while you're building a new world could you do us all a favour and choose new words for your new meanings? You can have grooveboard for free.
I think Nautilus just gave people a change to get the exact same engine from the Kronos in a less control oriented package.... Not dumbed down... If they need all the faders, knob, etc... Then buy a Kronos. That's simple. Lol.... Easy fix.
Ok you got me on AFTERTOUCH... Again, it's 1000$ cheaper. If you need the bells and whistles, the buy a Kronos. But for what Nautilus is created to be, it's good at. I told someone yesterday to just even consider Nautilus like a sound module... If you must.
People wanted a Kronos rack for YEARS... A rack wouldn't have had faders and AFTERTOUCH either... Lol... ... And it's super light weight. Of course it's a whole keyboard, but still. It's giving the Kronos sound engine in a new package. Krome etc didn't do that.
Maybe Workstation has been redefined? But the things you suggest can still be done with Fantom... Just in a more clip based way. How you get the song is a different story. It does have a sequencer and you can produce a song from start to finish....
Maybe fantom is aimed at a different crowd. And it doesn't seem that Roland is having problems selling them. The 88s have been backordered for months. Someone likes them... 😆
Basic problem is you said you couldn't produce a linear song in 32 measures. So you have 64... Is that enough? And you can manipulate that with the BPM. Solutions and work arounds are cool huh?
Music still has sections. Period. If it doesn't and it's just one straight piece that changes and never repeats ..... It still has sections. Just record into the sections. (This is IF you must own the Fantom... There are other options).
And yes... It's easy to point out the flaws in each one and end up making no music at all. There isn't a perfect option. Only alot of good ones. The hard work is in finding work arounds where the operating system misses the mark. Or making music out of these "horrible" pieces of equipment we have been blessed to have. Geez.... Imagine what the Beatles would say today ... they would be in heaven. They got way more done with less.
We are just way too privileged for our own good. And it shows.
The gift and curse of options.
For what it's worth I love music tech period. It's basically what I do. Lol. Everyday. So I too find joy in all the companies. I do have my favorites overall and my favorites for various things... Features I love and wish list. But at the end of the day, it's all beautiful 😍.
Korg hasn't had to because of how far ahead of the game they were.... Roland is the only company that has even closely caught up. And they JUST now did that with the Fantom 2019.
Kronos is the GOAT. HANDS DOWN.
I'm enjoying the conversation. Keep it coming. _________________ Please subscribe and follow me on Youtube and Facebook for information related audio technology.
Please excuse any typos. I typed that last response between sections of a song while practicing bfor a rehearsal. Lol. Moving fast. _________________ Please subscribe and follow me on Youtube and Facebook for information related audio technology.
And with no linear sequencing, just the sort of pick-your-arpeggiator style clips, so it's not even a workstation.
It's another groovesynth, with a decent sound library inside.
Quick question...
What type /genre of music do you produce? And what is your favorite keyboard of all time and current from the big 3?
Also what keyboards do you own at the moment? _________________ Please subscribe and follow me on Youtube and Facebook for information related audio technology.
I was not crazy about dragging my Fantom 7 out to gigs but this new synth looks like a nice, lightweight alternative. The models synths are paid upgrades but still not bad for $1499 for O6. _________________ Fantom 7, Kronos 2, V Synth GT, Moog Voyager
What type /genre of music do you produce? And what is your favorite keyboard of all time and current from the big 3?
Also what keyboards do you own at the moment?
For my private music, I mostly do evocative ambient with a psychedelic bent. When I'm working on commission, the sky's pretty much the limit. I've done everything from ragtime to rock, indiejazz to industrial.
As far as keyboards are concerned, the nature of my commission work dictates maximal flexibility within my budget. I'm a very value-oriented purchaser.
Keyboards that I own right now: KORG Kross and Krome, both original flavour.
Reasoning: I was moving away from computer production because of a combination of playing live, and frustrations with the hardware/software treadmill. The Kross came first because I could play into it, record sound, record MIDI notes as well as CC in from other controllers, and it could still act as my master for everything else in my studio (besides having very usable sounds in its own right). The Krome came second because I wanted the pianoroll capabilities. Both of them have served me well both in personal and commission work, live and in the studio.
For other functions that are in the general ambit of workstations as such, I have a Tascam DP-32SD for in-depth long-form audio multitracking, and I obtained an Akai Professional Force. The Force was a pretty recent acquisition, and I only got it once Akai had updated the software to the point that the arranger mode afforded me open-ended composition abilities.
Bear in mind, nothing in my studio, ever, has cost over $1000. Ever. It's about what you get out of what you have, and finding bargains such as a B-stock Krome, and using external controllers for things like expression rather than paying high prices for aftertouch-capable units. As I type this, my Kross is plugged into my Force to provide MIDI keyboard capability and a soundbank (to this day, the Kross actually has some pretty nice sounds).
If I were to pick my favourite keyboard, this may sound like a cop-out, but I'd go with my accordion. However, I think that you mean electronic, in which case I'd go for the Krome. It sounds great, you can use it as a VA, the touchscreen works pretty well with a stylus, and it has enough horsepower in the sound engine to be a single polyphonic sound source behind a performance sequencer in a solo gig.
If I had unlimited funds and a wide open field? I'd buy a K2700 tomorrow and snap my fingers - but I don't need it. I want it, and would really enjoy it, but I don't need it. From the big three, I would find a Kronos2 of whichever size from some shop that hadn't sold out completely. Alternatively, I'd use the sequencers that I already have, and get an MC707 as a sound source. If it were just about getting a keyboard as a controller, I'd probably do something from Studiologic, or cheap out and get a microkey61 (because being able to reach extended chords is good).
Great sounds, a much better keyboard than Korg’s offerings, plenty of actual knobs to adjust live if needed and for me the big one SLIDERS, a terrible omission on the Nautilus, I hate onscreen sliders. _________________ Biggles
Lancashire, UK
Great sounds, a much better keyboard than Korg’s offerings, plenty of actual knobs to adjust live if needed and for me the big one SLIDERS, a terrible omission on the Nautilus, I hate onscreen sliders.
Check this out... Maybe it will change your mind (as far as not having sliders/faders...)
_________________ Please subscribe and follow me on Youtube and Facebook for information related audio technology.
I think Nautilus just gave people a change to get the exact same engine from the Kronos in a less control oriented package.... Not dumbed down... If they need all the faders, knob, etc... Then buy a Kronos. That's simple. Lol.... Easy fix.
Given how Kronos is at the end of the line and running out of shops, not actually that easy. Time to look at other manufacturers (Kurzweil looms large). I'm assuming here that you haven't missed the news about the Kronos reaching the end of the line - and if you had, I hope you're sitting down because ol' brother Kronos is not going to be with us much longer. They've drawn a line for their future end of support, and the Nautilus is more-or-less their last hurrah on that engine as far as anyone has been able to divine.
apex wrote:
Ok you got me on AFTERTOUCH... Again, it's 1000$ cheaper. If you need the bells and whistles, the buy a Kronos. But for what Nautilus is created to be, it's good at. I told someone yesterday to just even consider Nautilus like a sound module... If you must.
Again, Kronos is fading out as an option. The Nautilus would actually have more more sense as a straightforward desktop module, along with a sales pitch for an awesome MIDI controller with USB host, key velocity, release velocity, polyphonic aftertouch and more. Of course, a day late and a dollar short now. The keyboard is pretty much a space-gobbling boat anchor on what should have been a thing you could stuff in a backpack along with a performance sequencer on your way to a gig, or tuck onto the end of a desk while you sequence it from your DAW or controller or whatever. Really, it's a mystifying product choice when stacked up against other workstations (because the Nautilus, unlike the Fantom O, is actually a workstation) such as the K2700 or even the MPC One. In fact, the Nautilus would have been better as a module with multiple outputs as an Integra-7 competitor.
apex wrote:
People wanted a Kronos rack for YEARS... A rack wouldn't have had faders and AFTERTOUCH either... Lol... ... And it's super light weight. Of course it's a whole keyboard, but still. It's giving the Kronos sound engine in a new package. Krome etc didn't do that.
You're right. People either want the sound engine and sequencer, or the full meal deal for playing out. KORG has steadfastly refused to do that, instead deciding to give us something with the bulk of a full keyboard but without all the amenities that make the Kronos king of the hill. Take a good, hard look at all those pictures of home studios with an army of keyboards in every direction, stacked three and four high all over the place. Adding a keyboard for its own sake solves nothing, but exacerbates the space and ergonomic problem. If you're going to slap a keyboard on a product, it should be a player's device. Master keyboards are a thing, and many manufacturers make them. I can get a nice master controller from M-Audio today - give me the sound module.
apex wrote:
Maybe Workstation has been redefined? But the things you suggest can still be done with Fantom... Just in a more clip based way. How you get the song is a different story. It does have a sequencer and you can produce a song from start to finish....
You are trying to redefine workstations. I respect that you want to - that doesn't mean that the rest of us don't see a distinction. A workstation is not just a performance keyboard, not just a sound module, not just a groovebox with delusions of grandeur. When the Force came out I passed hard on it because it did nothing that I cared about, and that I couldn't already mostly squeeze out of my KORG workstations. When the price dropped, they added arrangement, and its sampling capabilities were miles ahead of what I had - then it became a compelling purchase and when I could get a floor model at a discount I pulled the trigger. Roland is trying to present something that is a nice synth with a workable keyboard and some clip structures as a player in the workstation game, and while you don't see the gap quite a few others do. At that price I'd rather have the MC707 and a controller keyboard, if I had to go Roland for some reason - or better yet, the Force which offers more functions for less money (and yes, it has aftertouch on those buttons). Again, the Force is a workstation, and much more deserving of the title than the Fantom O. Or, for that matter, the Fantom.
apex wrote:
Maybe fantom is aimed at a different crowd. And it doesn't seem that Roland is having problems selling them. The 88s have been backordered for months. Someone likes them... ****
Not disputing that for a moment. But those people obviously aren't looking for a workstation. It's an amped-up answer to an electribe. Which is cool - electribes are cool. Grooveboard is a good term; you should try using it.
apex wrote:
Basic problem is you said you couldn't produce a linear song in 32 measures. So you have 64... Is that enough? And you can manipulate that with the BPM. Solutions and work arounds are cool huh?
When they're enough. And they often aren't. Even when they are, they're generally workflow-breakers, or introduce other limitations.
apex wrote:
Music still has sections. Period. If it doesn't and it's just one straight piece that changes and never repeats ..... It still has sections. Just record into the sections. (This is IF you must own the Fantom... There are other options).
The word you're looking for is through-composed, and funny about not owning the Fantom O - I don't, and have no prospect of doing so until and unless they fix some serious deficits. As for music with sections, you really need to listen to, for example, Tangerine Dream's Zeit double album.
apex wrote:
And yes... It's easy to point out the flaws in each one and end up making no music at all. There isn't a perfect option. Only alot of good ones. The hard work is in finding work arounds where the operating system misses the mark. Or making music out of these "horrible" pieces of equipment we have been blessed to have. Geez.... Imagine what the Beatles would say today ... they would be in heaven. They got way more done with less.
You're right. I've observed myself that what I have on my desk would have been an insane pipe dream in the '80s when so many iconic sounds hit the world. On the other hand, that doesn't absolve manufacturers of the responsibility to tell the truth about their offerings.
apex wrote:
We are just way too privileged for our own good. And it shows.
Asking manufacturers not to lie isn't privilege. It's honest dealing.
apex wrote:
The gift and curse of options.
For what it's worth I love music tech period. It's basically what I do. Lol. Everyday. So I too find joy in all the companies. I do have my favorites overall and my favorites for various things... Features I love and wish list. But at the end of the day, it's all beautiful ****.
I'm happy for you. Seriously - everyone should find some joy in life - but nothing that you have said has justified a manufacturer trying to rewrite definitions like a lawyer greasing up a contract in the hopes of squeezing something past the public. Roland's behaviour is at best shabby, and the world of music is bigger than you seem to think.
apex wrote:
Korg hasn't had to because of how far ahead of the game they were.... Roland is the only company that has even closely caught up. And they JUST now did that with the Fantom 2019.
Kronos is the GOAT. HANDS DOWN.
And this particular goat is being put out to pasture. It's done. They're putting dates on end stages of the Kronos run. KORG is tired of being on top, Roland isn't trying to be on top, Yamaha doesn't know what they're doing (Genos is a workstation-arranger! Thing! With arrangement of work! On a station! A SPACE station! Where we arrange! Things!) and now Kurzweil is poised to eat their lunch as far as workstations are concerned. If it weren't for the crazy prices, Wersi would be a solid contender too (and at what they do, there are very few contenders, so I'm not blaming them).
apex wrote:
I'm enjoying the conversation. Keep it coming.
For reference: 64 measures, in 4/4 time, at 40bpm, gets you about 6 minutes of music. That doesn't even come near my requirements, especially when working on movies. Sure, lots of 1 second, or even 15 second cues, but there are also occasions where I have unbroken series of musical content 15 minutes long. The Fantom O's present structure need not even apply. The Kross handles it easily, the Portastudio laughs, the Krome does just fine, the Force is great. The Fantom O can't hang with that crowd, and this is why these facts matter.
Yes I've known about Kronos. But they can still be had in the used market.
All in all, I get what you are saying. _________________ Please subscribe and follow me on Youtube and Facebook for information related audio technology.
Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Posts: 429 Location: Ding Dong, TX
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:47 pm Post subject:
I have nothing further to add to this thread except to say that I appreciate the civil discourse being exhibited here - to agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Such a candid exchange of opinions, preferences, and ideas is a "good thing". _________________ bpoodoo
Triton Extreme 88 w/MOSS
"We all move on, like centuries and doves."
I have nothing further to add to this thread except to say that I appreciate the civil discourse being exhibited here - to agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Such a candid exchange of opinions, preferences, and ideas is a "good thing".
Oh yeah man! I'm in the love with the technology. Lol. It's been enlightening hearing the stance and perspective. I've enjoyed it. _________________ Please subscribe and follow me on Youtube and Facebook for information related audio technology.
Roland certainly could, just as Akai could add the arranger to the Force. It's all software, all the way down. Honestly, I'd be happy and impressed if they did, and I'd have to re-evaluate their products in that light. I like Roland's sounds, and I am impressed with their sound design model. Their hardware is generally solid, and it's not as if I don't have some Roland products already.
But I must admit that I would be surprised. From their AIRA line on up, they seem to be stuck in their groovebox roots and it shows. (This obviously doesn't apply to their modular synths or their guitar or vocal effects side.)
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