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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10418
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 Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 2:26 am Post subject: PA5X vs Ketron EVENT?? |
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Hey guys
Just saw this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXImYf180cU&ab_channel=LaurentBotz
Yeah, I hate those "THIS vs. THAT" keyboard videos because you never know how fairly the recordings are made and what EQs and FXs are configured etc.. etc.., but if this is a "fair" comparison, then it's a no-brainer for me - PA5x all the way - so professional sounding OR.... maybe an unfair recording and the guy just wanted to really show off his PA5x 
Just saying....
Pete 
Desperately waiting for that next update, then I'm diving in!! Don't disappoint me Korg!!!
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PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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johnsmies
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 532
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Hi Pete,
I beg to differ this time. Unfortunately and for some mysterious reason an extensive comment by a person who owns both and has used both on stage in live situations has been omitted or removed here. It boils down to his conclusion that the Event simply crashes the PA5X !!!
Now you know me and I am not particularly fond of comparisons and " mine is better than yours ".... All I can say is that I have had my Event for six weeks now and it is a miraculous arranger keyboard still in its infancy. If Ketron does work on it its possibilities are virtualy limitless. Mind you the PA5X is great as well imho but both are beset by a fair number of bugs. However Ketron has already gotten their third OS update lined up in about sxi months time......I guess most of you are meanwhile familiar with our Polish friend demonstrating the Ketron Event but if not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7ghFgoXqtE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiWZF85LXAA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YLBPAmFXhg
P.S. sent you a mail.... |
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QuiRobinez
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2546
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| johnsmies wrote: |
I beg to differ this time. Unfortunately and for some mysterious reason an extensive comment by a person who owns both and has used both on stage in live situations has been omitted or removed here. It boils down to his conclusion that the Event simply crashes the PA5X !!!
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i'm glad that he is happy with his event, but i have a totally different opinion then him 
i've tried the keytron event in a dutch store for quite some time and for me it's not really the keyboard i would be happy with. It's not a bad keyboard by any means, but the styles don't appeal to me, and most important, i found it flat sounding without dynamics. I know that you can easely solve this with outboard gear, but for me that was a major breakpoint in going for the event.
But everyone should buy the keyboard that he likes the most. There is no good or bad, it's all a matter of subjective opinions. |
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Danster72
Junior Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2019
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hello,
I own both and I like both equally the same, it's very difficult to choose between the two. There are pros and cons from both. For sure though a person should be happy with either one.
All the best,
Danny |
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rikkisbears
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Posts: 1695
Location: NSW , Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:28 am Post subject: Re: PA5X vs Ketron EVENT?? |
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| karmathanever wrote: |
Desperately waiting for that next update, then I'm diving in!! Don't disappoint me Korg!!! |
Hi Pete, I haven’t seen one in real life either.
Makes you wonder if the guy was trying to sabotage the Ketron 🤨, certainly a no brainer for me either based on that clip .
The Ketron kind of sounded “off “ in the style department.
Hang in there Pete, soon be crunch time. The year is flying by. Scary. Let’s hope Korg don’t disappoint.😀
_________________
best wishes
Rikki
HOBBYIST
PA5X 88 note
Wavesart CFX 9ft Grand Piano 🥰
Wavesart Japanese Grand Piano
Yamaha PSR SX900
Band in a Box 2023 |
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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3616
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:49 am Post subject: |
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You're trying to compare dissimilar tools ...
- An audio style is studio recording of real instruments and every track is played by experienced section Musician using real instruments.
- A midi event style player like Pa5X/Genos can be compared with real instruments only if sampled instruments are in top notch quality
& development like nowadays VST , with all articulation and legato features and if midi event notes per track have been created by Pro
Musicians with deep knowledge per instrument.
Pa5X factory sampling library is not at this level so far (if not be developed by third party creators) , so studio recording of Audio files
in specific tone & Speed normally can't be beaten by any hardware sampler keyboard but only by latest VST production in DAW.
The bad results in pitch & time stretch can be easily seen by experts trying to alter them in a real orchestra recording in DAW.
So if you want to compare Pa5X & Event then do it in sampler engine of both arrangers (as video focuses ) where Pa5X is the winner
by far , Genos already is far better in any level compared to Event sound engine ...
On the other hand , a hobbyist / amateur that wants to just listen to a real funk playing orchestra for example , he will be be amazed
with Event , listening to factory prerecorded orchestra in preset tune & speed , simply because he will listen a real recorded orchestra.
For a composer / Music conductor / Style creator that wants specific phrases and scoring per track playing instrument , the whole
concept is a crap and wasting of time , that's why real audio was abandoned in Music production after 2000.
Therefore it's not a matter of taste but in fact a matter of knowledge ...
Hope this helps
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10418
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 2:39 am Post subject: |
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I completely understand what you are saying Antony.
I personally judge these comparisons on what I hear and what I want my audience to hear and my recordings to sound like plus have the flexibility to adjust all of this etc....
I have not yet been impressed with any vendors' "audio track" styles so far - Yamaha didn't do it for me at all and now Ketron really does not impress me in this regard.
OK, I fully appreciate the technology, real musicians, real sampled instruments behind it but right now (for me) MIDI style tracks with Korg's CVs and VARs and Korg's incredible sounds far exceeds what I've heard and played on keyboards with audio track styles and also gives me flexibility as opposed to none. Yamaha were very excited about theirs and demo'd the drum tracks (I specifically remember the jazz brushes demo) - I found these to be even more monotonous and totally inflexible.
As per above, this is my personal view.
Cheers
Pete
@Johnsmies
| johnsmies wrote: | | Unfortunately and for some mysterious reason an extensive comment by a person who owns both and has used both on stage in live situations has been omitted or removed here. |
What does this mean? Do you mean this?...
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=129010
_________________
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
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D575
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Aug 2013
Posts: 1211
Location: UK (Dorset)
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 5:01 am Post subject: Re: PA5X vs Ketron EVENT?? |
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| karmathanever wrote: |
Desperately waiting for that next update, then I'm diving in!! Don't disappoint me Korg!!! |
((((( +1 )))))
_________________
Korg PA5X-76 : Yamaha Montage M8x : Roland Jupiter 80 : Waldorf STVC : Roland Integra 7 : Waldorf Streichfett : Focal Trio6 ST6 : Studio Outboards/RME Audio Interface/A&H SQ Mixer : |
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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3616
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| karmathanever wrote: | | ... real sampled instruments behind it but right now |
Pete , actually there are not sampled instrument in Audio files but recorded instruments on playing phrases/riffs per chords in
studio recordings per instruments tracks per 12 semitones , this is entirely different function and similar to an MP3 players or a
Virtual DJ with loops where you can only change recordings that were played in studio and not even a single note can be altered !
Only sampler engine can handle specific midi events notes and 10 times more memory and engine technology are required in order
to simulate real instruments with all articulation & physical FX and the unbeatable hardware keyboard samplers are Pa5X , Kronos
Pa4X & Genos and flagship in sampler features is Pa5X with superior sampling engine.
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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johnsmies
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 532
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 9:48 am Post subject: |
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@Johnsmies
| johnsmies wrote: | | Unfortunately and for some mysterious reason an extensive comment by a person who owns both and has used both on stage in live situations has been omitted or removed here. |
What does this mean? Do you mean this?...
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=129010[/quote]
No Pete I am referring to the comments by Justin D in another language below the video we are discussing. I believe it is in Portuguese, not sure though. Anyway here is his English translation:
Justin D
I'd like to add something else although I didn't want to do this, I fortunately have the opportunity to play on big concert stages with high performance sound systems where I played with these two models and I can tell you that the opinion of the other colleagues in the band was the following : the Ketron is far above all the Arrangers that have appeared and as far as the Ketron Event and the Sd 90 are concerned it is far above any Korg Arranger model ! ! and I come back with the same explanation Korg loses its quality when you play in concert at a high enough volume and Ketron you have the impression that it is live especially Drum and Bass which in a Band is the most important rhythm section !!! With Korg the situation changes radically and everything sounds artificial and loses quality and one more important thing !!! The orchestrations in Korg styles are too simple designed are a bit amateurish and in so many years Korg has not managed to change these ways of orchestration in styles, my opinion is that Korg on the arranger side is left behind from pa1x to pa 5x have not changed anything in orchestrations very very little and the overall sound can still work and still this Arranger in my opinion is not really worth the price ! Have a nice day and I hope I'm not upsetting anyone
...... |
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QuiRobinez
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2546
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| johnsmies wrote: |
Justin D
I'd like to add something else although I didn't want to do this, I fortunately have the opportunity to play on big concert stages with high performance sound systems where I played with these two models and I can tell you that the opinion of the other colleagues in the band was the following : the Ketron is far above all the Arrangers that have appeared and as far as the Ketron Event and the Sd 90 are concerned it is far above any Korg Arranger model ! ! and I come back with the same explanation Korg loses its quality when you play in concert at a high enough volume and Ketron you have the impression that it is live especially Drum and Bass which in a Band is the most important rhythm section !!! With Korg the situation changes radically and everything sounds artificial and loses quality and one more important thing !!! The orchestrations in Korg styles are too simple designed are a bit amateurish and in so many years Korg has not managed to change these ways of orchestration in styles, my opinion is that Korg on the arranger side is left behind from pa1x to pa 5x have not changed anything in orchestrations very very little and the overall sound can still work and still this Arranger in my opinion is not really worth the price ! Have a nice day and I hope I'm not upsetting anyone
...... |
don't forget that this is the internet world, people can say anything they want but it doesn't have to be true.
I highly doubt that on a big concert stage there is a person standing there for 50.000 people with a ketron or korg arranger keyboard and playing the songs with the included bass and drums.
On big concert stages you also have professional audio engineers and your audio is running to a massive amount of compressors, EQ's and limiters on high end Mixing tables. With those high end outboard gear these things aren't an issue at all.
I've never seen arranger keyboards used on big concert stages. Most of the time people are using gear like Nord Stage, Korg Kronos / Nautilus, Yamaha Montage / mod-8. etc. But definitely not arrangers. |
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rikkisbears
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Posts: 1695
Location: NSW , Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| QuiRobinez wrote: |
I highly doubt that on a big concert stage there is a person standing there for 50.000 people with a ketron or korg arranger keyboard and playing the songs with the included bass and drums.
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Wonder what the rest of the band is playing?🤨
_________________
best wishes
Rikki
HOBBYIST
PA5X 88 note
Wavesart CFX 9ft Grand Piano 🥰
Wavesart Japanese Grand Piano
Yamaha PSR SX900
Band in a Box 2023 |
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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3616
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| QuiRobinez wrote: | I've never seen arranger keyboards used on big concert stages. Most of the time people are using gear like
Nord Stage, Korg Kronos / Nautilus, Yamaha Montage / mod-8. etc. But definitely not arrangers. |
Qui , Pa5X is able to stand as an workstation sampler in stage from a section keyboardist with just using programmed KEYBOARDS SETs.
Especially if customized , it can beat all mentioned sampler workstations in stage with just using factory & 8 GBs of custom samples
but a few advanced users can really understand this option IMO.
Already WavesArt Pa5X Platinum Bundle of 12 KBD SET Banks , completely defeats my Kronos 2 HD1 sound engine at any level especially
in articulation DNC2 controllers and 2 legato level recognition.
I intent to use Pa5X 76 as a lower keybed and Kronos 61 as upper keyboard for other synth engines when required and this combination
with customized sound development is the unbeatable setup for any kind of real time live performance ...
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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QuiRobinez
Approved Merchant
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2546
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| AntonySharmman wrote: | | QuiRobinez wrote: | I've never seen arranger keyboards used on big concert stages. Most of the time people are using gear like
Nord Stage, Korg Kronos / Nautilus, Yamaha Montage / mod-8. etc. But definitely not arrangers. |
Qui , Pa5X is able to stand as an workstation sampler in stage from a section keyboardist with just using programmed KEYBOARDS SETs.
Especially if customized , it can beat all mentioned sampler workstations in stage with just using factory & 8 GBs of custom samples
but a few advanced users can really understand this option IMO.
Already WavesArt Pa5X Platinum Bundle of 12 KBD SET Banks , completely defeats my Kronos 2 HD1 sound engine at any level especially
in articulation DNC2 controllers and 2 legato level recognition.
I intent to use Pa5X 76 as a lower keybed and Kronos 61 as upper keyboard for other synth engines when required and this combination
with customized sound development is the unbeatable setup for any kind of real time live performance ... |
I do value your opinion, but i have a really different opinion about this. On the DNC part you are absolutely right, but for bands in general the synthesizer options are really important. And even though the pa5x has a nice basic synthesizer, it's also really limited, for instance 2 lfos (with slow rates), only 1 filter model, a lack of modulation possibilities and so much more, and these things are really important when you set up your sound.
But i think it all depends on what your requirements are. But again, i never saw an arranger on a concert stage. Most of the time it's the korg kronos or yamaha montage on stage. |
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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3616
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| QuiRobinez wrote: | And even though the pa5x has a nice basic synthesizer, it's also really limited, for instance
2 lfos (with slow rates), only 1 filter model, a lack of modulation possibilities and so much more, and these things
are really important when you set up your sound. |
My reference is always sampler engine , even for vintage synths I have a complete collection of sampled waveforms of natural cyclic duration of them.
So contrary to any Kronos/Motif/Nord stage sampler , in Pa5X you can combine 24 OSC X 3 upper layers , so you have per single SOUND , 24 X stereo
OSC/Filters/LFO/AMS/ADSR/PEG plus global PEG & LFO that you can model anything you want , and just imagine all those X 3 in sound combination in KBD
SETs where each Sound works as a timbre with different articulation and controllers , this is unique for any hardware sampler keyboard.
I have developed very sophisticated real instruments and Symphonic Orchestras with over 50 OSC in common in 3 upper layers of KBD Sets.
I can understand mentioned limitations but valid for Kronos HD1 with Triton program interface , where Karma & rich Combination features balance somehow
the lacking of HD1 Program interface.
I have to note that I never use factory resources , I always built all resources from scratch in any Korg product I've ever purchased since its a rule IMO
that all factory resources are too poor at any level , so I'm always talking about potentials in Korg keyboards and not factory sound development level !
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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