Korg Forums

[ChrisDuncan]

Hey, guys.

I've been trying to debug problems controlling my new Fantom 7 from the Kronos. I finally have it sorted, and I thought what I learned might be useful to others controlling external instruments with Combis.

I was getting bad and random latency / delays, as much as a few seconds, on the Fantom. The problem turned out to be throwing more MIDI at the Fantom than it could handle at once. All hardware has its limits, but this occurred because of a fundamental misunderstanding I had about Combis.

To avoid menu diving, I had set up a Combi with 14 channels (leaving out the Global channel, and also 15 as that's my JV 2080). All 14 were set to EXT and then I muted everything but channel 1. By default, the three pages of MIDI filters were also all checked.

My assumption was that muting a channel in a Combi would prevent it from transmitting any MIDI on that channel. I was wrong. Even when muted, if a channel is set to EXT, it transmits all the CC data that's enabled on the MIDI filters pages. Consequently, I was transmitting 14 channels x 24 CCs in addition to note on / off, and this was overloading the Fantom.

I first unchecked all MIDI filters, and that solved the problem I was having. I then turned on the damper and joystick +/- Y for modulation on all 14 channels. That was enough to be a problem for the Fantom. However, I then turned all channels but 1 from EXT to OFF and the problem went away, which verified that the CC data was being transmitted even though all but 1 channel was muted.

So, for anyone in the future who is having problems with latency when controlling external gear from a Combi, my major lesson learned was that Mute doesn't do what I thought it did. Only changing the channel from EXT to OFF or INT keeps it from transmitting the CC data. (The Global channel is transmitted no matter what, you can't disable that.)

Hope this is helpful to others, and thanks very much to all of you who have helped me as I tried to sort out my latency issues.
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Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
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Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[CliveJ]

Hey Chris!

That’s very interesting: I work exclusively in sequencer mode as a solo performer and am having control issues with my HydraSynth in EX2 mode.

Specifically I send channel change and volume only but sometimes the volume setting doesn’t work on song select (either from within the sequencer or setlist mode). Weirdly if I hit Locate (ie move to start of song) the volume comes back to where I want it, but I can understand that there may be too much data being transmitted initially.

I’d already worked out that Mute doesn’t stop CC transmission - the program changes still transmit - but I hadn’t considered using the filter to limit CC transmission (DOH!).

Thanks for, hopefully, pointing me in the right direction. I’m now going to get into the habit of turning off everything that isn’t needed.
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Now let’s think of a reason why it CAN be done...

[ChrisDuncan]

Hey, Clive.

All. 384. Check. Boxes.
(8 rows * 16 channels * 3 pages).

Someone please tell me there's a "clear all checkboxes" in the filters that I missed...

Yeah, my thinking is that once you start overloading the target device's MIDI buffer, what gets processed is anyone's guess. On some boards the buffer may be big enough to hold it all and it just takes time to work through it, but I'm guessing that this often results in a buffer overflow and MIDI messages just fall on the floor. Sounds like Volume is occasionally the victim. Be sure to notify next of kin.

Honestly surprised that the HydraSynth wouldn't have a bigger buffer with it's gazillion parameters, but everything costs money so I guess a decision had to be made.
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Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
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Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[CliveJ]

384? - I think I’ll save a template

Gonna play with it today - I’ll let you know how it goes.
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Now let’s think of a reason why it CAN be done...

[CliveJ]

Well that was an interesting game of whack-a-mole. I turned of everything in the filters apart from program select and volume but still had the issue. Also switched all the unused timbres to “off” but no joy.

Putting MIDIox in line showed an enormous amount of sysex being sent by Kronos - Turns out the HydraSynth was responding badly to the sysex. Turned that off in Global and it’s now stable. Maybe that would help with your Fantom latency problem.

I’ve still to find out why Kronos internal sounds don’t always respond to volume CC in the sequencer track but that’s another day as I have a workaround using Karma scenes.

Thanks Chris! I got there in the end thanks to your post
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Now let’s think of a reason why it CAN be done...

[ChrisDuncan]

I had completely forgotten about sysex, and I have no reason to be sending it so that'll be turned off very soon.

Thanks for that tip, Clive - all moles must die!

And let me know if you ever figure out the volume CC thing. Not using the sequencer now, but always good to learn things.
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Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
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Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[CliveJ]

Will do, but that’s a bit down my list.

My next job is getting the sequencer to control my light show via FreeStyler. Already worked out that I can control the sound-to-light function from USB audio. The rest should be “interesting”…
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Now let’s think of a reason why it CAN be done...

[ChrisDuncan]

I spent a lot of years writing DMX software (I code for a living, but this was a side project), and have also used the Enttec Dmxis with Dmxis and D-Pro software. Lots and lots of fun with that stuff.

I don't know about FreeStyler's feature set, but with D-Pro I was able to create scenes and then trigger them by firing a MIDI note on message for a particular note. I think I was also able to control moving head fixtures via CC. It's been a few years, and I've slept since then.

If FreeStyler supports any kind of MIDI triggers / motion control, maybe you could use one track not used by your sequence, e.g. channel 16, and point it at your DMX hardware. Then you would have fine grained control by sequencing MIDI notes to fire lighting scenes at specific places in your song.

Of course, that's if you want to actually design a light show. If you want automated lights, sound-to-light is a quick and easy solution.

Definitely should be fun!
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Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[CliveJ]

Freestyler will do MIDI triggers so I’m gonna start small and work up - S2L in songs and static between songs to begin with. I’ll get fancy later on. Just a few washes and a couple of moving heads.
I code too but in database apps. I’d rather have your skill set - sounds like much more fun.
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Now let’s think of a reason why it CAN be done...

[ChrisDuncan]

Sounds like a sensible way to go about it, looking forward to stories.

And fully half of my headaches are related to Sql Server, not C#, so db stuff is a whole 'nuther rabbit hole. I'm competent, but certainly not guru level. I don't have the time to become a full on dba, way too deep a hole.

I'm continuing to test with the combi and Fantom, and just ran into another oddity much like the mute button ("You keep saying this word. I don't think it means what you think it means.")

I was playing with a channel pointing to the Fantom and one playing a Kronos piano. The volume slider works fine for the INT sound of the piano, but does nothing for the Fantom's volume. I had to reach over to the Fantom sliders and pull down the volume there.

I thought maybe I killed CC7 in the Great MIDI Filter Purge of yesterday, but there is no such checkbox. For some reason, the slider simply doesn't transmit volume to the external device.

Am I missing a setting somewhere?
_________________
Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth

[CliveJ]

Yeah I ran into that today. Enable “other control data” and you should be good to go. MIDI filter page 3.
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Now let’s think of a reason why it CAN be done...

[ChrisDuncan]

Excellent. That did the trick.

Thanks, Clive!
_________________
Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth