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Midi control of drawbar sliders
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pa4x_user
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Joined: 21 Sep 2016
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Location: Maroochydore Qld

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:02 pm    Post subject: Midi control of drawbar sliders Reply with quote

Is there a midi command to control each of the drawbar sliders please.?

Sure hope so, am looking at the IK Multimedia Hammond B-3X virtual organ for studio work and midi control of the bars is fairly crucial to use the Pa4X as the master controller keyboard.

Thanks
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet again Korg - we need a MIDI implementation manual!!!!!

You should be able to achieve this but you may have to figure out the MIDI messages by using a MIDI app/software to analyse the MIDI data.

Let us know how you go - I am very interested too

Pete Very Happy
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pa4x_user
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Pete, I have Cubase so will put some time aside to try and catch the midi stream.
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great idea

Try the PA4X sliders in different sliders-modes - I have a gut feeling that you may not see a MIDI stream when the sliders are in DRAWBAR mode (might just be "internal")

Good luck - am keen to know how you go

Pete Very Happy
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet another glaring example of how badly needed FULL user definable MIDI out codes for all sliders, knobs and screen controls are...

Why do arranger design teams seem so determined to make sure it's damn near impossible to use easily (if at all) with external gear?
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pa4x_user
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BACKGROUND
What I was really hoping was that I could identify the CC settings for the Pa4X drawbar mode, and use that to set the the upper CC settings on the IK Multimedia B-3X drawbars (that way, I could use the physical drawbars on the Pa4X to control the upper virtual drawbars on the B-3X).

___________________________________________________

So I have done some experimentation using my Cubase DAW midi monitor and also the default/optional settings for the IK Multimedia B-3x:

Pa4X SLIDERS
Volume mode: only the last 4 sliders send external midi being volume control for the LWR, UP3, UP2 and UP1 midi channels

Drawbar mode: does not send any external midi out, so it is not possible to use the physical drawbars (in drawbar mode) to control the B-3X

Modes A/B: some of the optional assignments in the Pa4X do send external midi (eg Upper VCF cutoff and resonance, Joystick X and Y movements, and a few others). It is also possible to assign CC12 and CC13 - which is perfect in that the default for drawbars for bars 1-2 of B-3X upper settings is also CC12 and CC13. But then the Pa4X CC assignment options run out!

A bit dumb really - why can't all the other unassigned CC be available as options for assignment to Slider modes A/B to control external equipment?

CONCLUSION
The Pa4X sliders in drawbar mode do not send any external midi, so it is not possible to map the B-3X to respond to the physical drawbars whilst in drawbar mode. Modes A/B have the potential to be used to control the B-3X, but Korg has not made enough CC's available to do the mapping that is needed. I would imagine that there would be a lot of other situations where this limitation is a frustration, other than just my particular need.

It is still possible to use the B-3X to record tracks in my Cubase, but in any event the latency is a problem. I reckon I am getting about a 1/3 second latency. That is a possibly an issue with my PC as the same thing happens with other VST instruments - am a bit surprised though, as I am using a HP Spectre X360 which is only 12 months old (16Gb, Intel i7 at 1.8GHz, 64-bit with 500Gb SSD)

I am going to hope that Korg increases the CC available for assignment to slider Modes A/B, and will retry running the B-3X virtual Hammond in about 18 months when I have a better PC also.
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are using your PC’s built in sound, that’s why you are getting massive latency. You will need an external audio interface which ought to get your latency down low enough to not be noticed. A better computer won’t help here. None of them have built in audio with acceptable latency.

But if you are getting that latency despite a decent interface, you’ll need to mess with your DAW’s buffer settings or system settings. A post on the interface’s forum would probably be the best place to start...
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arjen_1
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korghelper wrote:
Yet another glaring example of how badly needed FULL user definable MIDI out codes for all sliders, knobs and screen controls are...


I totally agree. Assignable sliders certainly implicate that they are fully assignable. Like on any midikeyboard. And why don’t the sliders send midi out in sound mode? Rolling Eyes
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pa4x_user wrote:
Modes A/B: some of the optional assignments in the Pa4X do send external midi (eg Upper VCF cutoff and resonance, Joystick X and Y movements, and a few others). It is also possible to assign CC12 and CC13 - which is perfect in that the default for drawbars for bars 1-2 of B-3X upper settings is also CC12 and CC13. But then the Pa4X CC assignment options run out!


Add this to the "wish-list" topic.

Pete Very Happy
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pa4x_user
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Joined: 21 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korghelper,

Thanks for your comment about soundcard . Yes,I have onboard soundcard, I had a feeling that may been the source of the latency problem - it is obvious even just playing a midi file through the DAW .

Thanks.


—————————

Pete,

Yes will add slider controls to wishlist
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chelsea4023
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Joined: 06 Apr 2016
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Location: West London, U.K.

PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Please don't shoot the messenger here but I use Pianoteq 6 and Ravenscroft 275 on my Roland RD2000. I use the free asio drivers for my i5 4200 laptop and I don't really suffer with latency problems. The asio drivers are widely used by musicians and are free of charge. Definitely worth a try.

http://www.asio4all.org/

Chris
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pa4x_user
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Chelsea,,
I never shoot the messenger - especially if it is good news. I will give it a try.

Thanks
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Korghelper
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chelsea4023 wrote:
Hi,

Please don't shoot the messenger here but I use Pianoteq 6 and Ravenscroft 275 on my Roland RD2000. I use the free asio drivers for my i5 4200 laptop and I don't really suffer with latency problems. The asio drivers are widely used by musicians and are free of charge. Definitely worth a try.

http://www.asio4all.org/

Chris


While ASIO drivers help lower latency, it is still an order of magnitude higher than you will get from a dedicated audio interface. Reliable high polyphony counts from built in audio seldom get under 24ms, depending on system load and are often higher. To contrast, audio interfaces seldom have problems getting down to 6ms and under, often much lower. For some, 24ms or so might be acceptable, and it’s certainly much better than 200ms, but it is still noticeably less snappy than hardware or a good audio interface.

Particularly in the case of organists, used to the immediate triggering of electromechanical organs like Hammonds (with microsecond level triggering), as low an audio latency as you possibly can get makes all the difference recreating the authentic B3 experience. Don’t forget, on top of the audio latency is the MIDI latency as well (depending on system, up to 4ms), so reducing audio latency as much as possible is critical.

By all means, go with ASIO for now, but as soon as you can afford one, both for latency and for better audio quality, get yourself a decent audio interface...
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:


Add this to the "wish-list" topic.

Pete Very Happy


How many decades has it been on the wishlist so far? LOL

It’s getting harder and harder to think that this missing ability is simply something overlooked. It has been badly needed since arrangers first had MIDI and sliders and buttons!
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pa4x_user
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korghelper and Chelsea,

Thanks for the tips. I tried the ASIO4all and the latency was better, but then I started to get random audio slowdowns and other glitching.

Am going to get an audio interface, probably the Steindberg UR44c, as I use Steinberg Cubase and I like compatibility of suppliers for reliability (hopefully). The interface will also simplify my setup when I am doing DAW stuff.

Thanks for all the comments.



Steinberg UR 44c https://new.steinberg.net/audio-interfaces/ur-c-series/
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Bose L1M2 speaker system
Yamaha BT midi interface
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Cubase12 Pro DAW software
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Band-in-a-Box 2022
Yamaha CVP-309GP
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