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[ellll]

I will start a new subject on this, hoping that would be useful...perhaps even one answer here might be useful to another of the group, but this probably belongs in anither thread somewhere...

In answer to my "mud" in the current song, Emblazon,..which has many sources..I must simply cite TWO that probably were wrong...One..the EDIT position page one, seq..has three items on the O1W..Prog...Vol...and Pan..

SO...First mistake:

I have a prob with mix, as I do all my music straight on the keyboard...not a good method with todays improvements..TO WIT..I got tired of trying to get things "right" on PAN..so I took the top position on the O1W.."PRG"... which I have assumed means "what the program being used" calls for..I just didn't use the a,b,c,d and combined or the 1:9 through 9:1 positions...I put all tracks on PRG..and it is too "muddled"...

Second mistake, seeking improvement:

I have an add-on unit, very old but interesting...a DBX...so I used a bit...and it actually simulates stereo...However...it does NOT bring any improvement with each track...or actually we are saying...each VOICE.. They do not recieve any DEFINITION with this..it simply mixes up some of the material for a slightly realistic stereo effect, and today..we are surely well beyond that..

I am correcting it now, as best I can...but best would surely be to do it on the COMP...which I am not equipped to do..

Anyway..if I can change...I will...but if I can continue to do ALL on "A keyboard", that is my pref...I never have had trouble with music per se...it is the MIXING, producing, recording etc I can't do...(remember, as a director, someone else always did it for me....)

So maybe I should go back to work, and get the Oasys????? does any other keyboard do better than this, inc. the Oasys??? Can a modern keyboard or workstation "stand alone"? Should I get comp. programs??
Is there a museum that would take my DBX??

Thanks for ANY answer!! John (ellll)

[JonSolo]

Man don't give me a spark, cause I will give you a flame!!! Ha ha ha. Ok, not a flame in "forums" use of the word. I would never flame a fellow. But the subject is one that I spent years ironing out. After saying that, appreciate that all I am about to share is merely MY school of thought and can probably be argued. But it works for me, so here it is.

Let's first of all remove the word mistake. There is no rights or wrongs when it comes to YOUR music. There is the ears of the beholders and that is about it besides you. You are clearly an able-bodied keyboardist/pianist. And it is that style that may be creating a "problem". Let me explain.

I used to approach every song as a keyboardist. That was fine no problems. When I started doing multitrack, however, it quickly became an issue. Not only was I approaching the song as a keyboardist, I was approaching every track as a keyboardist. What this meant was that my piano track was played exactly like a piano: full performance of the keys, full use of the pedal, etc. But then again, so was my string track...full performance on keys- sometimes 5 and 6 note chords. And then my guitars and organs and other tracks suffered the same fate. Even the bass lines weren't always lines. Overlapped notes caused problems. The result? Tons of mud. (And dropped notes.)

The biggest trick was in the way I played my piano track. I learned to control the use of the sustain pedal and use it for "tastes" here and there. I avoided full on whole hand chordings as I knew that the strings or guitars may be doing that task later on. And then I took that approach with every other track...many times avoiding the sustain pedal altogether (last I looked there was not one on a violin). So minimalism became the new "wall of sound" for me.

After that, after minimalizing my input track for track, and only after doing that, could I really get a strong sense of if and where panning should be used. I say if because assuming the piano is your central lead in a song, and you decide to add orchestral strings and a choir it is likely that if you had those things in real life, they would likely be center stage. At best, the piano may be off to the right and the choir off to the left...but both of those would have mics on them and be carried center with the orchestra.

So panning has to be an intelligent thing. You don't do it because you can, and you don't do it because you HAVE to. You pan because it makes sense to in a given situation.

As to using your DBX... I am not sure which unit you have, and various products do various things. But since you are likely dealing with the D/A converters of your keyboard out into your computer, it is likely not needed. Most older signal processing units like what DBX offered dealt with the fact that tape (used in ALL recordings for many years) introduced a lot of hiss and artifacts that needed to be filtered. Fortunately with MIDI and multitrack keyboards, this is no longer an issue.

Do you need an Oasys? I dunno. You could do your music on an old M1 if you had to. It is in how you approach the board. And for all the thinking we are told to do outside of the box, we still have to produce our ideas within the limitations of the box we are working with.

Jon
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Jon Solo

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Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
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Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

[ellll]

..Of course, it's easy to say now that I knew that...but..I did...I have just avoided admitting it...I have allowed the "pianism" ingrained in me to rule good sense..

I think in giant chordal structure...and large instrumentation..except...on the piano alone. and even there one may be seduced by chords. I was telling a member only a few days ago how I hate the composers sold on the general mkt..inc. Sibelius. Used it last year while teaching a college class... and disliked it for not allowing me the very freedom....that I must NOT have anyway...!! Perhaps that is really...the answer???

I will assume, (during and after reading your item many times as well), that if I want to do this fairly and neatly...I must learn...should be easy!!..??...I write on manuscript just fine...for small orch and chorus...lots of times in earlier days..

Most have not faced this. They did not grow up playing the classics since age 5 as I did...with perhaps over-exposure to recordings. As a result they learn theory and learn to use it without the ingrained experience.., in later, more mature years.

But all that means little really, and this somehow is different. the thing that grabbed me the first day was the ease of obtaining large sound on the keyboards...It can be a killer of good arranging protocol...I now see, and really I think, already knew.

Lets try. My .."after next", (my March is a simple and silly piano thing...), I will start now...from a melody, and keep in mind the best word you used...one that I believe so strongly in life in general, but cannot seem to do on a keyboard...You already know..

MINIMALISM...

Many thanks for this great response, Jon..One sees very quickly why so many follow your council and idea-rich suggestions!!! I promise to try!

Kind Regards and thanks!!! John

[Diego]

Very good suggestions over here!
Well done guys!
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Korg M3 with EXB Radias & EXB-256 onboard
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[ellll]

Hey...Thanks for checkin' it out, Diego!!,

In fact, sometimes we do instead of too much....too little!!.. discussion of the entire discipline!!..But like Jon, don't get me started...as I am way too long winded!!!

This should really be a good grouping this time...Not that the others were not, but now everyone is a bit "broken in" as it were..!!

I am certainly waiting for others to post!!! It's great fun listening to everyone!!

Diego, if you haven't, check out Coma Berenices..in the promote section sometime...

Cheers!!! John (ellll)

[JonSolo]

Hey we are all in this together. You guys get to rip me a new one shortly when I post my February song!

Like I started off saying, there are NO mistakes or problems when it comes to YOUR music. But we forget the box that we have is limited...unlike this one...where I can type and type and type. What our synths are asking us to do, is take my above post and put it into ONE sentence. And for me, that is difficult, maybe impossible today. But if we were limited to just one sentence to get our point across, likely we would figure out a way to do it. That was kind of the point of my post. Pan is almost an afterthought when it comes to mud.

Think Pet Sounds. It was originally in mono. No one here would likely ever call it muddy. And he had TONS of notes. But they had their places. Of course Brian Wilson never approached any instrument as if he were approaching that PARTICULAR instrument.

By the way, I find your piano playing magnificent. I wish I were more of an instrumentalist and less of a producer. I believe I think too deeply within the box sometimes.

Jon
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Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
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Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

[ellll]

Well, Jon, and others,

I need to continue this, as it seems in thinking about it, I find I attempt to do that which may not be reasonable...and it is as so many do, and is a right thing, but even now..foreign to me.

I have been working, (after doing "some" repairs to my Feb song), on another that is orchestral (in truth, forgive me)...The thing that is a problem is that I have few effects and no ability to "bow" a string, even picking the right program for a given case...I fight this constantly!! I am certain my arrangement...for small string section (No low instruments) horns, trumpets, bassoon, oboe, tympani and piano is valid, maybe even slightly good.....but many would say as before.."Get one of the great computer string programs"!! ...

But then I could not play it in real time on a keyboard, adding, changing as I go...looking for a better progression/harmony....I would be ONLY at the computer, as if I am gonna enter notes one at the time...I just as well do it on the computer. (Of course, some may be played from a standard music keyboard to computer, but even then its slow and for me, complex anyway, and its not for me an easy thing, and I only can do it midi right now, and those voices require so much adjustment, or they sound much less satisfactory than the O1W voices...)

And so..the programs and computer are, in this original sense, less valid to me than my playing with a liferime of experience, from a good keyboard.. (physically)..Yet I am reminded of how many scores I hear on TV..(almost all, I assume we all realize that...), that are done from an electronic binary realization by computer/workstation. I have always worried about the SOUND the machine was making, but never my music, most of which I worked feverishly with manuscript to put in print...so I could read it!!! I know if I come up with a score, what it will sound like with the "REAL" instruments...but...no one has real instruments anymore..

It leaves me a bit cold..I find on the one quite good program I have, that entering a note, instead of playing it in real time..(you have to remember, ..I play it all in real time, as some still do, and don't make a lot of corrections except in removing wrong notes...), leaves me out IN the cold, and has little enjoyment in it...YET ..I am reminded for example, of the power string/orch things that Kyle has done and put on the Promote section...and a number of others as well...All thjis means much less if one uses guitar, piano, drums, a few others and vocal...but what I love is classical..I admit it...

I can tell with excellent reproduction..and /or a lot of time..but NOT on an ipod through button headsets...I falter in saying real, or computer...BUT THEN!!! Is maybe the computer ...also REAL???

I once again am left to grope blindly for a light in this new and almost dark world of music...YET... Based on what you hear...it's usuallly just great...

All then I have left to say..is to mention how long it took me to accept making string sounds on a keyboard...from Moog, Arp, and many others.
I refused for ages to recognize them. It took me all my young life to even vaguely accept an electric, or electronic organ...when I knew the only organ was a pipe organ.

The story of my wandering Washington D.C., (when you could still do so..), is a story worth telling, as for days, while visiting my sister and her husband one summer about 1952 I believe, at 13yrs of age, I went into many great churches, probably 20 or 25.., and played the organs, or, if caught in the wrong church, or the wrong time...at least listen to another play them...

..All so much fluff..I am the one that is old...and each generation will develop the elements of music theory as they find them to be most useful, enjoyable and effective for others...it doesn't matter what I now do in music..I did mine long ago, and I do it now just for some abstract driving compulsion to DO!!! and so I do it..

My Regards, John ellll

[JonSolo]

If I am reading what you wrote correctly maybe the solution is closer to you than you think.

There is a trick called key switching. What happens is usually the lowest octave or so on your keyboard is assigned the task of switching samples on the fly. Hitting a note within that octave changes the notes that come out of the rest of the keyboard (i.e. played with your right hand). This means you can get bowed, plucked, trem, or whatever style of playing interwoven amongst each other all done with real time playing. You can even trigger presampled phrases like this.

There are many pluggins that support this. A good example of this would be Halion String Edition. In the sequencer program it records both the performance and the key switches. This way, even if you make a key switching mistake you can choose to replay the whole thing from scratch or fix the one mis-stroke.

So you get the benefit of great sounding realistic strings with nuances, and the feeling you get from actually PLAYING the parts instead of typing them in (something I have NEVER done either!!! Though I will admit to fixing a bad note if the entire rest of the performance was dead on.).

Did I address the right thing??

Jon
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Jon Solo

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Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
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Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

[ellll]

Yes indeed, Jon,

It was a question I had, but then you answered, and ...I recall reading some on the use of key positions for switching...I had forgotten 'till I read your response!!..a possible good solution, but still doesn't bring the subtlety of the bow to the keyboard. It will help in planning change on the fly, but ..well we will see..

Part of the problem is that I was also a secondary conductor of a community orchestra, and directed my own chorus with small orch. for a long period...It makes me want to "play" the orchestra, so I am impatient, I'm afraid.

I play Viola/Violin "some" (I play many instruments "some" and have taught them as well, only to early students who have need of comment and support on well versed technique they already have from a good teacher, except for voice and piano, my life instruments. These I taught all levels.)....and I miss the expression there, when I use a program or voice on an electronic keyboard.

I simply need to take some additional time at one of the colleges nearby, and work with the programs, to see if I can learn them well enough to enjoy, and be satisfied...I DO know they are by and large, a real help to music in general...

(Ever play any "Square" games..in particular Vagrant Story...or FF12..or several other FF..You may know of Hitoshi Sakimoto, the composer of the score for Vagrant Story and FF12...all done on comp/workstation..(but I don't know what he uses...) His work is very beautiful and most people, inc me, never think of WHAT is making the music...(many think it is orchestra chorus..etc..etc)..)

I also have to simply "discover" more programs that are available...I haven't taken the time, and just used some at the colleges where I taught a few classes part time...

Thanks for reading my long exploit...It served me already..just as an outlet to make me think about what I wanted, and get it off my chest...You have been very kind indeed...

My Regards, John

[JonSolo]

I do believe you are right. Without tons of edits, all done from the computer, there is no getting close to the subtleties that are deserved from acoustic instruments. And even with tons of edits, you will never duplicate with completeness an instrument in it's rawest form.

On the other hand, for myself I have attempted to come as close as I can without TONS of edits and find some satisfaction in the writing and overall arrangement, which fools most ears. I have done several songs of electronica that have an "instrumental orchestral" break in them, and have been asked where I recorded the orchestra...which obviously I did not...it was all done on keyboards.

But having the deep association you have had with orchestras I can see the pent up desire going unsatisfied with the current market of keyboards, even one as full and grand as the Oasys.

And by the way, in case you can't tell, I enjoy talking about this kind of thing.

Jon
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Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

[georgeinar]

I hope this isn't changing the subject too much, but as for editing, my new electro ballad is being edited note by note, I want absolute precision from the first note to the last, and in this style I'm not worried if it sounds programmed as that is actually the effect I'm going for. Computer controlled perfection. I also have noticed doing a much slower 80 bpm that you do have to watch everything closely from how hard you hit the crash cymbals to the exact timing of how long you hold a note. I'm having a lot of fun, but it is a bit tediuous and extrememly time consuming. Hopefully it will show though all the work I'm putting into this. I'm going often measure by measure plucking a certain note out of inserting one harmonic difference. The voice though will be a bit rough and bluesy hopefully to contrast the computer music.
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[ellll]

George, and others,

It seems to me your style may well WANT that kind of machine-like precision in the end...while other times it may fly by wire!! like my Melancholia..from 3 yrs ago..just sound, meant to be felt...

Your material at times MUST be free, and other times... needle sharp....It's the nature of your music genre, and what you do!!

Seems what we are saying then....Is the result musical?...and in fact, yours is that and more...The real test then...is the old..."But Is It Music"..and I believe material worked and kneaded, and even loved to a point, by serious "fools" of "art", giving of their hearts and souls, is indeed that high calling...Music!!

So when we re-visit the idea of throwing a box of dishes in the street, and calling it music..we may then see...It would depend on e context; the overall plan and execution of an idea, the emotion, pain or pleasure.. and what went before....and came after..even if just in your own mind...!

In my case, I do know now, after thinking about the great ideas by a very solid writer, Jon, that I am doing what I want...I cannot always M-A-K-E the sounds I use conform to what I hear in my mind and imagination...but I do it for the notes!!! because I feel an "urge" to TRY to say it...

I know I don't write well often, but I do write by rules and beliefs I have lived with since that first day, when I sat and played notes because they were pretty!! Its why I went to college..and taught for years...

I have no answer...but I know what music really is...it is the emotion and hope and fear of the person...looking for expression, just as surely as does the poets words, or the painters sight!!!

Regards!!! John ellll

[JonSolo]

George- the idea of editing note for note on a song is truly challenging and time consuming, yet some of the best arrangers and composers for soundtracks do just that! If you are looking for that effect, then all the more power to the music! I am excited as I hear about ideas that are seeing fruition on this board.

e4xl- You hit the nail on the head. The fact that any of us here can take nothing and many hours later have something is miraculous. And it is why I do music.

Jon
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Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

[ellll]

Friends,

Still diggin at this string thing...,(with horns, bassoon, tymp and piano...) picking out the diff. string sounds available to me..(brisa is NOT one on the O1W.....thats short, detached notes or a few notes in a phrase)...I am doing it for an emphasis at the beginning and for a finale...)...but the "marcato" string is pretty good...if silly name for a string...(any inst can be played Marcato...)

It may be a bore...but I hope it will be of interest to someone...I do NOT know if I will make it an OSAM number, or just put it on the promote..yet..

And I am working on piano things and a couple "pop" with percussion...but it is hard for me...(but fun actually..its just that you guys may never hear them ) ..Anyway..I am really enjoying getting back to it...so ...we shall see how it is going several months down the road...

We will all come out of this in the end...!!!

John..ellll

[Dee]

So many interesting issues here...took me a while to catch up on this discussion.

Thanks for all the input John, Jon and George......am very intrigued about this electro ballad.

And ellll, hope you do post your "string thing" as an OSAM song. I was playing around with some strings too, following some advice KF members gave me about 2 years ago, and hope to manage to get these pre-set sounds into the sequencer somehow.

Dee