Korg Forums

ellll · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: Improvement

Friends,

I want to mention at this time, the maturing of ideas and ability I now see in OSAM 2008, compared to the first OSAM..and in many ways the second as well. I am hearing new and well prepared structure in melodic content and progression, with NO holds barred in the idiom and genre each person selects; in fact, much is as good as we hear on the media every day...

I feel the ability level is little short of wonderful, and it has me scratching my head in wonder, and also about what I am to do to keep up. There is real talent here indeed, and I am sorry if I never expressed my appreciation during the first OSAM...

I will pick just two to mention...'cause they won't care..Thats George, from whom I find a new and growing maturity of sound presented. and Daz...who amazed me, not because I didn't know his ability, so much as his willingness to put it out there and combine material in new and exciting ways!!!....and it is true of ALL OF YOU as well...KUDOS indeed!

In any event, I will put something up every month, but warn!, they mey be incomplete, as I am very tied to a few problems, and when my wife Linda gets better, we will>>>TRAVEL>>>as well Very Happy

Thanks to all for letting me in for this run...Just don't expect me to equal...I am old...not heading anywhere but for myself...and hard pressed to think and use now...I will simply do what I am able...

My Best Regards!!! John ellll Rolling Eyes

georgeinar · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject:

Appreciate the mention here, Ellll, while of course in all my humility I will concede to the immense talents in all others here, as mom says, i love everyone equally. But I digress, how and what you post here is entirely in your control. The purpose of this amazing contract is to force us to push the bar, to produce more and better than we would on our own. Also, to afford us a willing audience that will comment in constructive and positive ways. I've said before, as long as people post something each month, I consider you having met your deadline. It's up to you to determine how 'finished' your piece should be before posting. If you cheat anyone here, it's yourself. So if these deadlines help you, even if your pieces are not completely flushed out, then so be it. As long as you know that a year from now you will be able to look back and say, because I used OSAM to the best I could, I have achieved something greater than I would have done without it. My only fear for myself is that I could just throw something together and call it an experiment and end up being lazy. So that's why I'm spending as much time as I can composing and tweaking. I do understand though that with things like illness and other acts of God, to produce music can be nearly impossible. Just do your best and know that we love to hear your amazing pieces. You are the best reprentative of classical we have here, so you round us out.
_________________
George Nelson is 2loose
http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)

Stephen · Platinum Member Joined: 28 Aug 2002 Posts: 4709

I don't know how helpful this is, but I deliberately leave my songs with intentions of revisiting them after hearing comments from others.
I make a list of things mentioned, then after a week or two, go back to the song with a fresh outlook, and fresh ears.
It's the old question, "When is a song really finished?".
Incomplete is fine in my opinion, and actually take suggestions with more of an open mind.
I happen to love your music.
Smile

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Location Central U.S.A.

JonSolo · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:

I would like to second the above comments.

As George clearly stated, this is the perfect "push/pull me" event. Everyone is on our side and we have a captive audience. And to add to Stephen's comment, this is not always about personal growth. Sometimes we are just getting perspective.

In many of my posts I add "but that is my personal taste" because I realize that some suggestions are a matter of opinion. But as my brethren mentioned above, some suggestions help shape our projects into masterpieces (or at least masterful pieces).

The variety of music available here and styles among us is fantastic. With every piece of music I learn something new to experiment with. One thing I have taken away from listening to your pieces is that my projects tend to be regimented. I should "go with a flow" more often and play with improvisations more. In my April piece, I will be looking for that happy medium, by and part, thanks to you and to Stephen.

On the other end, George keeps me straight, and while pumping me up with fantastic and many times undeserved complements, he also brings me back down to earth with solid production techniques, many which are expressed through his own music.

And I could go down the list of everyone on this board...everyone has a desired and much needed contribution.

So post away! I am looking forward to your next song.

Jon
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http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
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Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
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ellll · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject:

I think some missed my real point,

And.. I have the background to be pretty good at this; but first...

In fact, I cannot really do much, nor do I wish to...I play very well in general, and play my grand for full practice every day. I have been "harrassed" to teach another couple of "Music App.", and I may...I hate to say no...and it helps me stay "alive"..

I am just in trouble with the "production" here, as everyone is ALSO getting better at SOUND...and I am not very interested, except for my friends interest...(and I DO Appreciate it!!)

It may make better for all that I do have a program on the way from someone that may help...(??)

HOWEVER:

My interest in writing this original post, is the level some here have reached, which simply was not in them two years ago. That is worth noting, and it well justifies the effort to have the OSAM running. I just fear some may not feel and see how thay have improved..MUSICALLY, not in sound...

The music must come first, and I hope that all will be sure of this...there is no mistake...the production is secondary to the composition...else you sound like any fly-by-night, part successful, sometimes musician like some that the pros here have carefully mentioned at times!!....Music today is a real mis-mash with some people, as you surely must know...

My Best Regards!! John ellll Rolling Eyes

JonSolo · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject:

John I completely respect your thoughts as mentioned. And I agree for the most part, if I understand you correctly, that it should be about the music first.

But allow me to add if I may and not to sound "corrective" to anything you wrote: for many of us here myself included, production can be and usually is a large part of the composition process. I was never professionally trained in either playing or composition and would love to be able to duplicate some of your playing techniques! Given that, I depend on my tools to make my simpleton ideas sound better than they would on solo piano in my hands.

For our Ambient and Electronica members of the family, they depend heavily on the textures of the sounds and arpeggios (that are usually done through keyboard wizardry and not our skillful quantized chops Smile

). Many of us depend on production techniques to make a modestly written song sound over the top. Karma was the best invention in the universe for many musicians on this board.

I am not sure if I will ever be a better song writer than I am now. For that matter I have no idea if my skills as a musician will improve. But I do know that I can present my meager offerings in a very palatable way through production...production that does get better with each suggestion offered here. With that improvement comes more boldness in presenting my compositions. So I feel that production can serve in an almost equal existence with the basic song.

And while music is very mish-mash today, I personally think it has not changed a whole lot since the early days of blues when a man knew three chords on a guitar and two good vocal hook lines who then repeated that several times to have it became a classic. The problem has little to do with the "musicians" or even the producers, and more to do with what the marketeers shove down our throats: what THEY want us to hear.

That is why I enjoy this captive audience. It didn't cost me a dime in marketing. Laughing

georgeinar · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:15 am Post subject:

what an intersting discussion here. I think, Elll, if you're not as into the production side then that's fine, and you could record a masterpiece here for us and whether we think there's too much bass or etc. that doesn't really matter when you're concentrating on the composition more. I do notice that the comments here in the forum seem to be more on the technical side, I have rarely had anyone comment on any specifics in my lyrics, on which I spend often just as much time as many of my musical parts. But I think overall this is the best bunch to write along with, and every writing class I was ever in seemed to focus more on this or that and not always exactly where I was at. For instance I wish more people here were doing vocals with lyrics because i could learn better from helping them on that angle.
_________________
George Nelson is 2loose
http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)

ellll · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:35 am Post subject:

Of Course, Jon, and,

I should have made the very point, and did NOT mean not to.....I as well, have come "under the gun" of promotional expediency...and it does indeed happen in classical. The case was for classical sound production however..that it was always done for me, by the (usually) school auth...

Too often production is pressed in ways that "only" hold up to those very ideas of money in attracting an audience.....Like the bank robber Willie Sutton, I believe said when asked why he robbed banks...He replied in amazement.."'cause thats where the money is..."

Thats why popular, or "peoples" music does sometimes draw bad money...cause thats where the money is...It is the most popular...Classical in its truest sense has one half of one percent (!!??)..of the music market.....

In fact I was NOT taking away from the need for the new production methods and equipment...and I like it as do other people...I just want us to know that the production is not even real, unless the music..(and videos these days... Shocked

), are there...

This was my point, as I saw more improvement in my friends here, in the MUSIC...but I would not notice the sound as well as you and others with your ability...and that means it is needed by the ones like me..that hope to get the right gear and help eventually...It is just a bit late for me.

None the less...This OSAM will go far...remember I said it... when it produces more future OSAM's, and maybe more success for some members. It will happen, I believe.

This will be my last OSAM...I will be too interested in travel, I fear..in another year...And I should mention, I am going to teach the two College Mus. Ap. classes I was asked about next quarter...(Keeps me out of trouble in the spring/early summer season) Rolling Eyes

Maybe I will get a chance to teach theory in the fall..(The big classes for majors generally go to the full professors, as you probably know, so I won't wait up nights.......!!!!

Yes, I believe in this whole effort, make no mistake!!!

My Best....John ellll Rolling Eyes

ellll · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:44 am Post subject:

I want to comment to George on the issue of Lyrics as well...

I find the lyrics that you write to be VERY!!! well thought out, tho' a little....well,....for me at my age Confused

confusing...But I am very used to art song lyrics, and can write them very well as a result of having a lot of practice in the area...

I believe the lyrics here are generally good...But I NEVER comment, as I am afraid to be seen as a judge of what is said... To me it seems a lot more sensitive than the music parts...and I really don't know what to say...

Now that you have indeed!!! brought it up, I do hope you will say a bit more...maybe encourage others to write more lyrics...and to comment when they listen!!!

VERY good points George!!!

My Regards, John ellll Rolling Eyes

JonSolo · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:10 am Post subject:

One area that is seeming to be the consensus here is that maybe we are delving into the technical, when our focus could easily co-exist on the actual song.

I think all will agree with me on this- one of the reasons I don't make many comments on the music specifically is that I know how I view my OWN songs. They are almost like my children. If someone were to criticize one of my kids, well....well actually, with my personality, I would thank them. But the USUAL reaction is offense.

So maybe we can lean more towards advice and compliments on the music, while being careful not to step on toes.

Point well taken John.

George, you and I think alike. There was a time when I could not write lyric one. I feel I have come into my own so to speak with my lyrics. I spend more time on that than I even do on production, which happens quite fast usually. But it would be awesome to hear more lyrical content. One thing I have taken home from your lyrics George is that there is no limit to topic. Anyone who has the guts to staple a reptile's emotional status on a planet that has yet to even be seen up close in person has got my vote!

Any critique of my lyrics is welcomed as well.

Jon
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Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9

Dee · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:05 am Post subject:

The way I see this "technical" vs "musical" issue, is that I have come to regard my synth as a musical instrument in its own right. So learning to 'master' this instrument has become extremely important to me. I realise that I have to learn about technical things because that's the way to achieve the beautiful sounds that I am after.

The terminology is sloooooowly starting to make sense, sometimes by chance remarks, such as Lorenzo's joke about Diego and silence and 0dB. DUH-UH !!! I get it now!! My mind is awash with Hz, dB's, gain, flam, high pass filters and compression.

Shocked

georgeinar · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:33 am Post subject:

Dee, as they say, you go girl. You are coming into your own. We've all been thru it. When I bought Soundforge I was a nervous school kid, now it's my left arm.
_________________
George Nelson is 2loose
http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)

ellll · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject:

AND....,

I wouldn't know Soundforge from Blacksmith's forge,...and so goes the world's best efforts...After all, the USA has hardly a clue about the Prez. elections for this coming fall......(wonder how that fits this discussion??)

However, I DO hear now,...that "something" is not "quite" right in my March offering..on the left side....My gear is old...and ...unlike the comfortable old shoe...I can't wear the sound as a "Badge of Courage"...It is too easily heard...

I will get the Drs' and taxes and insurance of spring behind me...and get that soundcard...!!! In the meantime, should you chance to listen to March,...tell me if you hear "BAD', not that it has the wrong Fx...' or balance..(altho, that as well), but the "cleanliess" of the sound,. 'cause I think somewhere between the pressed key, and the Winlame...there is an electrical prob....

Thanks for support and ideas...I hope I can continue to do the same!! for others!

My Regards, John ellll Rolling Eyes

chordial · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject:

The whole process, from writing (both music and lyrics), arranging, recording, mixing and mastering is a minefield of technical and creative ups and downs.
It's great that we can all discuss these things, as well as listening to the songs, and make suggestions too.
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Daz · Retired Joined: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 10829

I enjoy this section and endeavour because it is so much about the composing and making of music. The rest of the forum (and many other forums) seem to cover this most interesting topic far less.

I've duly noted the comments re: the music vs the mix ...

Daz.