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[medveczky]

Hi!
Do everybody know, what kind of synth pad is used in song "Hold on" (Genesis) by Tony Bakns.
I read and I saw that he used a Wavestation synth pad. I like this prog and I would like to know its name. I suspect that it is a reworked preset.
Thanks in advance.
zoli from Hungary

[Trinity2112]

You mean 'Hold On My Heart' don't you?
_________________
Current Lineup: Kronos 61, Oasys 76 · M3-61/RADIAS · Trinity Plus/HDR · 01/WFD · 01R/W · X3R · M3R · Wavestation EX · Wavestation SR · Triton Rack/MOSS · Z1EX · TR-Rack · D3200 · Reaper
Dearly departed: X3 · Karma

[medveczky]

Hello Trinity!
Yes, I think the song "Hold on my heart".
And I would be curious what kind of Wavestation synth pad is used in this song.
As I saw, you have a wavestation haven't you?
Maybe you know the secret
Regards,

[Trinity2112]

Yes, I have the Wavestation EX and SR, plus all the cards. I also have the CD with that particular song on it. I went through all the presets on the SR and came up with a few that resembled that pad, but nothing definitive. Gotta check the cards when I get a chance this week and I'll let you know.
_________________
Current Lineup: Kronos 61, Oasys 76 · M3-61/RADIAS · Trinity Plus/HDR · 01/WFD · 01R/W · X3R · M3R · Wavestation EX · Wavestation SR · Triton Rack/MOSS · Z1EX · TR-Rack · D3200 · Reaper
Dearly departed: X3 · Karma

[jumbojock]

Hi folks

Tony did indeed use the Wavestation but I think you'll find that the pad used in "Hold On My Heart" was the Blown Glass patch from the excellent Roland JD 800.

jj
_________________
MacBook Pro, Roland X8, V-Synth, Korg WS EX, Legacy Collection +DE with MS-20 Controller, Arturia V Collection, Logic Studio 8

[rainy-taxi]

Hi,

Tony used the Wavestation on this (and many other songs from We can't dance) one. The patch you are looking for is "Whisper Voices". That's the main pad he used for the song (chords).

In case you are looking for other Genesis sounds in the wavestation. Here they all are:

Ooo's (used as the main pad in No son of mine and tell me why among other songs as a layer)
Warm strings (used in Fading lights, the strings before the instrumental)
Octave strings (Fading Lights, strings after the instrumental)
WHEEL Vox ("solo" sound in Driving the last spike. On the We can't dance tour also used in Second home by the sea in the more quiet bit with the ghost projectings on the background)
Minilead(used in Fading lights as the solo sound. You will need an edit for this one. Copy it to a place in the RAM banks and set the parts to polyphonic. Some sections use a polyphonic version of this sound, other sections use the monophonic version. Set the keyboard sensitivity to "4" to get the setting Tony Banks had for his wavestation)
Analog stringsIt might not be the original patch but when edited, it can be used for Jesus he knows me (as the pad sound. The intro and middle8 are done on the Ensoniq VFX with a patch called Florida Keys)
Seven Sirens (this sounds a lot like the choir sound, used in the live version of Dance on a volcano from that 1992 tour)

I'm a keyboardist in a Genesis tribute band and we focus a lot on the newer material. I can confirm these patches are 110% correct. There might be however some wavestation sounds used by Tony Banks which are not listed here. I suspect Living forever and Way of the world having some sounds from the wavestation.[/b]

[mocando]

Why I can't find ooo, WHEEL Vox and Analog Strings on my Wavestation?
_________________
Martin Ocando

Korg Gear: Krome (soon), Wavestation, NanoKeys
Non Korg: Roland A33 MIDI Controller - Casio WK-3300 Workstation (Sampling - Drawbar emulation)
Photo Gear: Panasonic Lumix DMC-G3 + 20mm f:1.7, 45-200mm, 14-42mm

Visit: KORG Fans :: Everything KORG Twitter: @korgfans

[mocando]

Never mind, it was that, since I still don't have access to my MIDI cable, I just initialized the Wavestation and it copies ROM into RAM1 and RAM2, so I had just the ROM sounds.
I built them myself using the KLCWS as source. They sound AWESOME.

One question, Santi: The sound of Ooo's in No Son Of Mine is a bit less bright than the standard Ooo's, but I realize that moving the vector joystick down it cools it down the sound. What vector position Tony uses, or you recommend?
_________________
Martin Ocando

Korg Gear: Krome (soon), Wavestation, NanoKeys
Non Korg: Roland A33 MIDI Controller - Casio WK-3300 Workstation (Sampling - Drawbar emulation)
Photo Gear: Panasonic Lumix DMC-G3 + 20mm f:1.7, 45-200mm, 14-42mm

Visit: KORG Fans :: Everything KORG Twitter: @korgfans

[rainy-taxi]

Hi Mocando,

Tony usually has his joystick to the right position but as far as I know, that doesn't do anything because if you switch programs, the initial setting is loaded instead of the current setting the joystick is in.

As the OOO's sound is concerned (it's in RAM3 of the SR), there are a lot of factors adding up to the total sound.

First we have the mixing desk. Tony uses the M480 roland mixer during the WCD tour. He processes his wavestation with the Yamaha SPX90 MK2.
I'm not sure if tony applied EQ to his sounds on stage. To be honest, I don't think he does (as a general setting for a synth is usually not the thing you want, you want to EQ separate sounds instead of separate synths).
Of course, the mixing desk @ FOH could have add some EQ which makes it sound duller or brighter.

As the studio version is concerned, the OOO's are only heard "solo" in the intro/first verses. When the drum kicks in, he layers it with a VFX pad sound (not sure what it is called, I believe Synth2sect, its in the ROM of the VFX. Mine currently broke, looking for an SD1 to replace it btw).
And somewhere along the line he keeps adding layers. I believe I can hear warm strings somewhere at the end aswell as the JD800. He also uses the VK1000 organ at the end (and plays the bassnotes with piano from the kurzweil K1000PX).

One general tip/setting:
The velocity curve he uses seems to be "4". I tested them all and used the minilead as a reference. Setting 4 was the best setting that could be used with the minilead sound. Controlling it (like tony does during his fading lights monophonic solo part) works best with that one.

We have a gig the 15th (of may) and as far as I know we are recording it. There is a lot of WCD material on the setlist (including fading lights and driving the last spike). If recordings work out well I'll post them if anyone is interested

[mocando]

[rainy-taxi]

Hi Mocando,

Great to hear everything worked out well for you Try some heavy chorus and reverb for WHEEL Vox if you do second home by the sea, aswel as the intro for driving the last spike. I have two versions of the patch. One that follows the normal bus routing to output 1/2 and another one with no effects that's routed to 3/4. I use a Boss SE50 to process it. The Boss have wonderful effects. A bit lo-fi maybe but that suites the sounds a lot better then the more clean effects the newer effect units (like lexicon, TC, Yamaha and also Boss) have.


1. The lead sound for Home By The Sea, is a sawtooth but I can't nail it right.
It's the befamed Synclavier. I'm not sure which lead sound you are referring to as he uses multiple lead sounds. In the first part of the song, he uses a lead sound (during "sit down, sit down").
It sounds a bit horn like. Try making a patch with pulse waves and lowpass filters and some chorus.
Chorus is the key for the synclavier. It's an FM engine with added sampling. Tony never used the sampling, only the FM engine (the story is like this: he got the synclavier around abacab and fiddled around with it on the abacab sessions. Me and virgil for example is synclavier and I believe the harmonica in another record is synclavier too instead of prophet 5—as I think it sounds close to the harmonica sound Lyle Mays was using at that time with the Pat Metheny Group on "Are you going with me?"—Anyways, the synclavier was very problematic in its early days. So tony was getting fedup with it. Around 1983, he got a good working system which he used a lot from then. Earlier, the representatives of Synclavier told him that a sample option was on it's way for a good price. However, when the option came out, the price was much higher then they first told him. Thats why he went with the Emu Emulator. That option was cheaper and gave him more possibilities aswell as an extra board to play)

To come back to the chorus, the synclavier uses it extensively. The sounds for Mama and also Home by the sea (the instrumental bridge sound) sound so good because of their chorus. They are nothing more then a bunch of sine waves (the mama sound having some modulation).

As the other lead is concerned, try something with a saw and a pulse. It's a bit of a combination between that. There was a sound on the N5 which could give a good impression of it. Of course, use chorus and also modulation after a couple of seconds.

You might try something like an oberheim saw wave (if those are available to you) because the oberheim saws have a more stringy/organic quality. That serves the sound better.
Although it's a lead sound, it shares some similarities with some of the string sounds the synclavier produces.
(Oh and btw, someone claimed the sound to be string 19. It's not, it's synth lead 1 on the synclavier).

2. The lead sound (sawtooth as well) for Follow You Follow Me in LOE.
In case you are referring to Live Over Europe, just try to saw waves, small amount of detune and some chorus. Tony uses a volume pedal for the fading in of the sound (he tries to emulate the ADSDR from the Arp Quadra). He uses that volume pedal trick already since the Invisible Touch tour where he used the synclavier for the lead.
Check the preset leads. There might be a suitable one as it's a pretty basic synth patch that most synths can make.

3. As for Fading Lights, the left hand chords is definitively a layer of multiple sounds. I'm using some strings and brass, but I don't quite get the right sound. What do you think he's using?

Not sure which part you mean. The left hand only plays the Bb or A (depending which version you hear—studio or live?) and the right hand the chord sequence. Before the instrumental this is done with Warm Strings. After the instrumental this is done with Octave Strings which have more depth because (as their name implies) the sound is played over multiple octaves.

Mike rutherford plays moog source on fading lights (the source is his replacement for the taurus. Never knew why he did that. Maybe because of the extended range the taurus 2 pedal board has)

In case you are referring to the chords during the instrumental section. Everything chord wise is Ensoniq VFX. The first one is a patch called Synth-Sect (which is in the initial ROM). That one has 5 layers of brass and 1 layer of strings which make up for the sound.
I usually disable one layer of brass to give more polyphony. Tony uses this too I think. In fact, with more layers turned off, you get the sound for No son of mine and Dreaming while you sleep.

The other sound is an edit of the patch Very Breath which he uses for driving the last spike. He mutes a couple of layers here too.

Cheers,
Santi

[mocando]

I can't stop asking you for more advise. If you plan to charge me someday I might have to sell my car to pay you HAHAHA BTW, I believe you really enjoy giving advise

Regarding Fading Lights, I have all the strings set. Warm and Octave. The minilead is already poly, so I'm covered there as well. I was referring to the instrumental accompaniment for the minilead. You say Tony uses two patches? The first one, as I told you have the brasses and strings as the patch of the Ensoniq, so I think I'll leave that one. You say it uses another patch? How the Very Breath is constructed?

I would like to ask you about I Know What I like. The Live Over Europe version is cool. The lead is not moogy as in Seconds Out, but I think it sounds cool. How do you play it and which patches you use for the different parts ?

For Home By The Sea, I was referring to the lead sawtooth he uses in Second Home By The sea, it sounds very screamy and I think he also uses aftertouch modulation. What do you think?

TONS of thanks, Again.

Cheers.
Martin
_________________
Martin Ocando

Korg Gear: Krome (soon), Wavestation, NanoKeys
Non Korg: Roland A33 MIDI Controller - Casio WK-3300 Workstation (Sampling - Drawbar emulation)
Photo Gear: Panasonic Lumix DMC-G3 + 20mm f:1.7, 45-200mm, 14-42mm

Visit: KORG Fans :: Everything KORG Twitter: @korgfans

[rainy-taxi]

I believe you really enjoy giving advise
Well I'm not the type of guy that yells to know and have everything but doesn't share the knowledge. There are some generous keyboard players in the tribute scene that share their insights and there are some very snobby ones who are the opposite. I hope you concider me in the former category…

How the Very Breath is constructed?
A preset on the VFX/SD1 is constructed of a max of 6 waveforms, all with separate envelopes, filters and LFO settings.

The VFX has something called a patch select buttons. These are two buttons that are located above the pitch/mod wheels. The idea is that you can have 4 "sounds" programmed in one preset. By pressing one of the buttons (or both or none), a sound is ready to be played.

What this means is that you can say:
I have 6 waveforms.
With the XO combination (X = patch select button pressed, O = not pressed) I want waveform 1, 3, 5, 6 to be used.
With the OX combination I want 2, 3, 4, 6,
with the XX combination I want all waveforms and
with the OO I want 1, 4 and 5.

The standard Very Breath sound has a number of waveforms assigned in the standard OO position. This is what tony uses in driving the last spike and also for the instrumental section in Living Forever.
I believe its the OX combination that he uses for the last chord passage in the fading lights solo.
Sadly my VFX is opened up and cannot be used (which sucks because I have the gig next week and didn't sample all the patches. So I will use the normal Very breath for fading lights).

When my VFX works again, I'll record a small demo demonstrating the principle.

The lead is not moogy as in Seconds Out, but I think it sounds cool. How do you play it and which patches you use for the different parts ?
Interesting that you find it "moogy" on seconds out. Of course its the arp pro soloist and he uses one of the fuzz guitar sounds on it if I recall well (maybe with filter setting, have to check that).

We play the version that was done on the 1992 tour. I use the Voce DMI 64 MK2 for the organ (run trough a boss se50). It's patch number 3.
For the other sounds:
I start the song with mini lead (and some delay to wash it out a bit). It's not what tony used, he used something from the JD800 I guess but I don't have that synth (nor the JD990) and the Fantom doesn't have a stock sound I like.

After that I use a wavestation patch called MonoSynthLead. I use a poly version.

For the that's all part I use the mini lead again. This time a version without wavesequencing. I'm just using the waveform, not the wavesequence.

For Home By The Sea, I was referring to the lead sawtooth he uses in Second Home By The sea, it sounds very screamy and I think he also uses aftertouch modulation. What do you think?

I think the synclavier didn't have aftertouch. The modulation is envelope triggered (with an LFO which is "connected" to an envelope generator or so to speak in more modular/analog synthesizer terms).
I have the basic sound and I apply modulation to it with an lfo which I can set to a certain delay.

Screamy depends a bit on the version you are hearing. I have the idea that tony might have switched sounds. The We can't dance tour/Cas tour sound fuller to me then the mama/invisible touch tours.
The TIOA tour uses the same sound (I believe) but sounds cleaner and harsher because of the very clean effects that are on it.
The WCD tour had the sound processed by 2 SPX90 units. One was set to the symphonic chorus (I believe patch 18/19) and the other one uses delay/reverb. That chorus made for a more fat sound. Something the Synclavier is known for.
I process it with chorus and delay from the Boss SE50 and set the delay intensity according to the song (the same sound is also used in Los Endos on the IT tour. I play that version sound wise but it has much more delay there)

Something that might be useful to look into when recreating this sound on a different synth is having a good idea how you can program a pipe organ sound with FM or Analog synthesis. The sound shares some similarities with that too.

Cheers!
Santi

[mocando]

Oh yeah, definitively you fit in the extremely helpful category

Now, as for the VFX patch, you say there are 6 waveforms, and tony uses only 3 of them in the OO position. Ok, do you know what type of waveforms are they?
Remember I only have the M50, which is a latest technology synth with tons of potential, and 256 megs worth of samples. No sampling feature, I'm afraid, but I'm confident there are very nice and tweakable samples inside that I can produce almost any sound. BUT, it doesn't have wave sequencing.
That's why I got a Wavestation. A standard one, but in mint condition. I just finished doing maintenance to it, dismantled every single key, cleaned and regreased them, fixed a cold solder contact in the main Audio output and is now working 99%. The 1% is the backlight, which is burned, but that's another story.
So, I must try to get the sound using those two synths.

If you can tell me which waves are layered in the VFX patches, I can try to emulate them with the M50.

One last request (for this week ) naah, I don't want to bother you too much, so I'll keep asking slowly.

MAMA: That is a tough one. Isn't it?
1. Starting lead
2. Arpeggiated EP like sound
3. Brass kind of sound

I think there are other sounds, but I can't remember which ones.

BTW, I took the liberty of getting this tips together and will post it on a blog, of course mentioning that you are the author of those tips.
_________________
Martin Ocando

Korg Gear: Krome (soon), Wavestation, NanoKeys
Non Korg: Roland A33 MIDI Controller - Casio WK-3300 Workstation (Sampling - Drawbar emulation)
Photo Gear: Panasonic Lumix DMC-G3 + 20mm f:1.7, 45-200mm, 14-42mm

Visit: KORG Fans :: Everything KORG Twitter: @korgfans

[rainy-taxi]

Oh yeah, definitively you fit in the extremely helpful category
Glad I can be of assistance!

Now, as for the VFX patch, you say there are 6 waveforms, and tony uses only 3 of them in the OO position. Ok, do you know what type of waveforms are they?
I believe he uses 3 if I recall correctly. I have to get my VFX working again to see which waveforms where used. I'll check with the manual tonight to see if I see any familiar waveforms.

Remember I only have the M50, which is a latest technology synth with tons of potential, and 256 megs worth of samples. No sampling feature, I'm afraid, but I'm confident there are very nice and tweakable samples inside that I can produce almost any sound.
Well to be honest, there is some thing that most digital synths can not reproduce and that is character. Most newer synths sound very clean and digital. I use the roland fantom XR (which has 512 MB of sample ram and also 1,5 gb of sound ram) and I find it clean and digital.

However, the choice in waveforms has expanded exponentially because rams are getting much higher these days (like said, my fantom has 1,5 gb of sound ram which is an aweful lot. The oasys has even much more)
Chances are big you'll find something that works.

I just finished doing maintenance to it, dismantled every single key, cleaned and regreased them, fixed a cold solder contact in the main Audio output and is now working 99%. The 1% is the backlight, which is burned, but that's another story.
Join the club. I fall in the category "keyboard rig that always fails because something is broken". Current state:
1 broken VFX
1 broken Wavestation EX (glad I have the SR as a spare!)

My wavestation gives very loud bangs and resets itself every time. Opened it up and I think the power circuit board is the culprit. A condensator leaked fluid.
Have to repair my WS or find a new one.

One last request (for this week ) naah, I don't want to bother you too much, so I'll keep asking slowly.

Ah well no problem. I'm not bothered

1. Starting lead
Stack some sine waves, use chorus to thicken and maybe some filters to get rid of some nasty unwanted frequencies. Play with the octave settings of these sines.
Add modulation (and modulate every sine independantly with slightly different settings). That should work I think.
The same goes for the voices sound he uses in HBTS and also in Domino. Just remove the modulation and there you'll have it.

2. Arpeggiated EP like sound
Take a poly synth pad (I use quadra waveforms), apply a low pass filter to it.
Now here is the trick:
You'll need a filter that has an LFO which can be synced to a tempo. Set the triggering to a saw wave and 16th notes. Play with the resonance and cutoff (and maybe the envelope) and there you have it.

Don't forget to apply phasing!

3. Brass kind of sound
That's a very difficult one. I use a prophet 10 sound but it's not the thing he used on the album (sounds more like what he used on the WCD/TIOA tour)
It shares similarities with the organ sound for abacab (Sound on sound has a very nice tutorial how to program that one on the P10. Just open two instances of Pro 53 or any other prophet 5 clone and there you go. Or if your M50 has similar capabilities, there you are).
However, there is a more stringish quality to it which is probably done with opening the filter up a bit, using a saw wave and changing the ADSR on the VCA slightly.

I think there are other sounds, but I can't remember which ones.
Yes! A koto I took one from the Emulator library but just take a koto that sounds good to you. Tony sampled the koto himself with the emulator so it's difficult to reproduce 100%. Sampled koto's don't have the same quality as his koto. Probably because of the mic techniques. I think tony sampled it "quick and dirty" instead of with a lot of effort (choosing the right mics, right mic position etc.) which gives it it's character.

BTW, I took the liberty of getting this tips together and will post it on a blog, of course mentioning that you are the author of those tips.
Send it over for review! If I get the gig recorded, maybe I can throw in some samples with examples.

Btw, I'm currently working out the sound for jesus he knows me (not the intro sound, the pad he uses on the wavestation).
I'll should have something tonight.

Cheers!
Santi