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Long Cold May...not a song, ha
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JonSolo
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:50 am    Post subject: Long Cold May...not a song, ha Reply with quote

It would be a great idea for one though.

Anyway...it has been a real drag around here! But I wanted to see how music was coming for everyone. Are there any new songs about to be released?

Maybe we should get a May chart up soon George so everyone remembers to add. Laughing

Jon

(ideas are starting to come up to me for June....finally!!!)
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georgeinar
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I've been working so hard on my next songs, yes plural, that I haven't been in here as much, also my internet has been really bad. This week I'll start up the chart. I was going to start up a new thread topic too, but for the moment I forgot what it was. Hope all is well. Been a cold month for sure. But when it's nice out I really have trouble staying in with my music.
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Daz
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cold here in NJ too ...

My song for May is coming along quite nicely. It's another guitar/vocal piece, so be warned Wink It's a bit less rocky than the last, it's almost folky. As I was composing/arranging I looked back at the various tips and advice I was given before and folded them into what I was doing. It was really helpful to look back over other's thoughts.

At this point I can play/sing the song all the way through on my acoustic guitar and it feels like it all fits together well, so this week I will start recording it.

Daz.
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Dee
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everyone

Now you DON'T want to know how it's going over here....

But I'll tell you anyway:

Okay......I have reverted to doing my song for May on the synth only, since I just haven't had enough time to really get started with pro tools. Work and family have been keeping me busy.

But I'm determined to keep my OSAM commitment no matter what!

This month will be a classical sounding piece from me. Hope I get it done in time.

It's cold here in Sydney too, but warms up with clear blue skies during the day.

I thought you Northern Hemisphere Dwellers would be going into summer....... Question .......what's going on?

Regards to all of you,
from
Dee Very Happy
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Stephen
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I thought you Northern Hemisphere Dwellers would be going into summer....... .......what's going on?


Must be Global Warming, right?
Razz
It's the time of the season for yard work here.
Confused
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jazlover
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is hot and humid here.....Great weather for the gators.

I haven't even started....not good. I have been very busy on other projects. Feeling uninspired at the moment. As soon as I get home, I will stare at the keyboard.
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ellll
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When its cold...its freezing...

When its warm....all is well...

When its hot, ..it's too much for me...My new comp/s KILLING me and I am ready to give it to somebody else to suffer with for a while

Johnny (ellll) Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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JonSolo
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cold was merely a metaphor. It is warm and muggy here in Charleston. But many of my clients are off, and though I work all the time, I see very little money. But no worry...I got my music. And it's helping to keep me going.

Hoping for a better summer.... Jon
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georgeinar
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cold is not a metaphor in Chi town. It's like 48 at 5:30 PM. We want a nice Memorial day!!!
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Daz
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not so sure about "long" May either, it seems to have flown by here.

Anyways, Dee you're probably doing the right thing. It takes some time to become accustomed to working a different way and the last thing you want to do is find that you're getting a negative vibe from the software/computer because you feel it's working against you. That kills inspiration. Take your time with it and it will come. None of us just installed a DAW on our computer and just started recording with it. You already know a lot of relevant skills from your work with the Triton and it's a case of finding how your working method with that translates into doing the same thing with PT. For example if you create a template project in PT that has 16 MIDI tracks assigned to channels 1 thru' 16, you'll have effectively replicated the Triton Seq environment. Thats one of the few differences between the Triton Seq and a MIDI sequencer, you have to create your tracks to record on, whereas on the Triton they are just there already. After building your 16 track template the idea is that you select one of the tracks, arm it for recording and then hit the record button and play your heart out. Rinse and repeat for each track.

Just random thoughts ...

Daz.
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Dee
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Daz

What you have written is like GOLD to me.

I realised that I didn't understand the difference between my setup on the synth and what on earth to do in protools.

Most tutorials or books go from an audio recording point of view, like plugging in a guitar and recording it, or a mic and voice.

I just want to play on the triton, but record with protools, and then fiddle with the midi data like I usually do in event edit. And then add effects. Now there's another headache.

I do have a question about effects - if and when I eventually do get going, if I have effects operating on a track on the triton, are these effects recorded in protools (as part of the midi data), or would I only hear them taking 'effect' when I play back the midi data. So when I eventually make an audio track from the midi track (in protools), would the effects that I set on the triton be heard?

Gosh!!! Does my question make any sense......Shocked

Note: I haven't tried doing this, but I've been worrying about it!

Thanks again!

Write some more of these things......PLEASE........don't assume I know anything at all.

Regards from
Dee
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georgeinar
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dee, do keep asking these questions, as the answers you will get here will help the rest of us midi-newbies also.
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Daz
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dee when you're recording MIDI into PT all the computer is doing is recording what notes you play on the keyboard and any "performance gestures" such as pressing the sustain pedal, moving the modulation joystick or applying aftertouch. No audio is recorded, so your effects on the Triton don't come into the equation.

Effectively it's like having someone watching over your shoulder as you play and writing down what notes you play and when, and then playing those notes back for you when you hit Play. If you could look inside a MIDI cable and watch the messages flying down it when you play a C Major chord you'd see something like this :

C3 Note On with velocity of 45
E3 Note On with velocity of 45
G3 Note On with velocity of 45

... and then when you released the three keys you'd see 3 corresponding messages :

C3 Note Off
E3 Note Off
G3 Note Off

Similarly if you depress the sustain pedal a message flies down the MIDI cable saying :

Controller 64 was set to 127

... and then when you release it :

Controller 64 was set to 0.

It's not dissimilar to operating your TV remote control. When you type in a channel number and hit Enter a message is sent from the remote control to the television telling it you to change the channel. MIDI is essentially just a form of remote control telling an instrument to play a note or stop playing it.

Another important concept is the idea of a MIDI Channel. All of these note on and note off commands need to correctly address the right sound on the Triton or any other synth that is capable of playing 16 different sounds at the same time. That is achieved using a Channel number from 1 thru 16, to address the appropriate timbre or track. So a complete MIDI message or command looks like this :

Tell the guy on Channel 1 to start playing the note C3 with a velocity of 45.

So when you record yourself playing the keyboard into a MIDI sequencer you're just recording a bunch of commands saying play this note or stop playing that note and the software records each command and the musical time at which the command was received. Then when hit play, the software spits those commands back out at the appropriate musical time.

That's exactly how your Triton works and ProTools too.

Recording MIDI onto multiple tracks is effectively just giving your virtual orchestra score to play, but nothing has been recorded to tape yet. The next step is to record the audio coming out of the Triton when the MIDI is playing it into audio tracks in ProTools. Typically I do this by muting all the MIDI tracks except the one whose audio I want to record, and then hitting the record button. That makes the sequencer play the MIDI and record the audio. Having done that I mute that MIDI track, because the corresponding audio is going to play from the audio track I just captured instead. Rinse and repeat for each MIDI track. Note that the key thing here is that the sequencer can play MIDI and record audio at the same time. Cunning ! So it's just recording the audio generated by the MIDI it played back. Be sure to have the right effects on each sound on the Triton before you do that. Don't over do it, because it's the next step where the real audio processing happens. Personally I don't use too many effects on the keyboard itself, maybe just things like chorus, and rely on the DAW for stuff like EQ and reverb and apply those when mixing (see below).

After doing that you will have a bunch of muted MIDI tracks and corresponding audio tracks for each sound/part. Now the fun part begins because you now have a bunch of audio tracks to mix and apply effects to. Note that we recorded each instrument to a separate audio track so we can apply effects such as EQ to each one individually to make them all fit together. You can also setup Master or Send effects and use those to apply the same reverb effect to all the all the tracks in the mix.

Having mixed your 16 tracks and got all the effects right, you can then "bounce" the whole lot down to a stereo audio file, ready to burn to a CD or convert to an MP3. Normally you'd apply some kind of mastering effect(s) to that stereo mix before distributing it, but I'll save that topic for another occassions.


So again ... the workflow :

1) Score your virtual orchestra by recording each part into a MIDI track associated with one of the 16 sounds/channels on the Triton. Tinker with the MIDI for each until correct.

2) Record the virtual orchestra playing the score to tape ... i.e. record what's played by each invididual MIDI track to it's own audio track.

3) Having recorded the music played by each MIDI track to a corresponding audio track, mix and apply effects to each audio track until you have all them sitting nicely with each other.

4) Bounce the multiple audio tracks down to a single stereo file.

That's how I work anyway Wink

If your timing and playing is really good, then you can just record the audio the Triton generates when you play, straight to an audio track and bypass the MIDI part. That's what you have to do with singers, guitars, pianos and other things that don't have MIDI sockets. It's much more direct, but you don't get as much opportunity as you do with MIDI to fine tune "the score".

Daz.
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JonSolo
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz,

You forgot one thing...and Dee...this is NOT a condescending statement...just trying to cross the "t's" and dot the "i's"...

You must have both MIDI IN and OUT connected to and from your keyboard and computer (or at least switch back and forth as you drop the audio tracks).

Quote:
If your timing and playing is really good, then you can just record the audio the Triton generates when you play, straight to an audio track and bypass the MIDI part. That's what you have to do with singers, guitars, pianos and other things that don't have MIDI sockets. It's much more direct, but you don't get as much opportunity as you do with MIDI to fine tune "the score".


Actually that is why I like working with virtual instruments (VSTi) and there are some programs out there that DO allow SOME manipulation of audio, but we won't go there right now.

Jon
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Dee
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Daz

Shocked Shocked

This information is really AWESOME and I have it all printed out and sitting there waiting for me to try out.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!!!!

And thanks for your extra input as well Jon...we all know that you know heaps about these things, so it's nice to know you're there too.

I can see how understanding the concepts is really important.

I've got a few questions about some points in the workflow:
(sorry if some of these sound really dumb)

Quote:
1) Score your virtual orchestra by recording each part into a MIDI track associated with one of the 16 sounds/channels on the Triton.


If you do this one track at a time, how can you make sure everything lines up exactly in time? I suppose you set a metronome in pro tools and start playing on the synth, just like when recording a track on the triton...??

Now what if I already have a song with 5 or 6 tracks recorded on the triton and want to transfer all of these into pro tools as midi data? Do I do them all at the same time, or one by one? Or do I save the song as a midi file on the triton's floppy and then get this midi file into pro tools, and then...er...well....don't know!

Quote:
2) ... record what's played by each invididual MIDI track to it's own audio track.


Daz, you say you mute all the midi tracks except the one you're recording to audio.........why don't you record all the midi tracks to audio tracks at the same time? Can't they run at the same time? why "rinse and repeat for each midi track"??

Quote:
3) Having recorded the music played by each MIDI track to a corresponding audio track, mix and apply effects to each audio track


and you also said

Pro Tools is:
Quote:
...just recording the audio generated by the MIDI it played back. Be sure to have the right effects on each sound on the Triton before you do that.


So it is possible to have some effects set on the triton HEARD when 'performing' the part for each instrument when doing step (1) even if this is not being captured as part of the midi data. (I find that the effects determine how I play the particular part, like how long I hold the notes down etc. I remember George said something like this somewhere too.) Then when the midi track is recorded as audio, the effect of the effects on the instrument (program) will be recorded...???

Thanks again for taking so much time to explain things, Daz. Hope others will benefit from this too.

Regards from
Dee Very Happy
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