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OASYS - end of the Workstation, or lead to M1 level sales?
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: OASYS - end of the Workstation, or lead to M1 level sales? Reply with quote

Really interested in your thoughts on this -

Is OASYS the end of the evolution of the Workstation as we know it?

If not, aside from 'relatively minor' updates such as more EXi's and M3 Expanded's new sequencer.....; what could/should OASYS lead to that's significantly revolutionary - ie - that really graps the music technology world by the short and curlys?

Or - put it another way - what extra would OASYS actually need to generate no less than DX7 and M1 sales figures (and you're not allowed answer that it'd be impossible ever again to achieve those sales figures) - so get your thinking caps on!!

Kevin.
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sirCombatWombat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would require another transition point in technology.

I am already sold on OASYS, so it's difficult for me to see what more would be required turn so many heads. Additive synthesis is one that has not been reincarnated for a while in a hardware platform, if I'm not mistaken, and would sonically really complement the current set of instruments.

But if you want really high flying thoughts, then VR Synthesis and Composing Environment would really hit the spot for me. VR-SCE sounds cool too. Cool Don your eye-vids and data gloves and dive in to the 3D world of music for real. Smile

And before anyone says it aloud, I do not think Kevin wants another price debate here. Exclamation
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Samu Teerilahti
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Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirCombatWombat -

Excellent - thanks for that - yes - I'm interested in what technical innovation would redefine or evolve the 'workstation; - definitely not a price debate.

Actually if by VR you mean Virtual Reality then you're thinking exactly what prompted my post -

I was day dreaming about all sorts of added capabilites for enhancing playing/sound design/composing - such as Multi-touch screens for putting notes into a score, copying parts etc., polyphonic aftertouch, D-Beam and so on - stuff that only dediacted hardware could do robustly; coupled to the workstation far more easily interfacing / merging with DAW environments / Video Editing suites / Games composing sound design / Live lighting and Dance and so on -

And you've said it in one swoop - Virtual Reality. Not sure this would generate 10's or 100's of thousands of sales; but OASYS + VR -would be exciting and revolutionary? So are we talking about better ways of harnessing the existing power of the OASYS?

Kevin.
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curvebender
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the ridiculous price of the Oasys!!.... Just kidding. Wink

By reflex, my first impression of any synth, be it classed as a workstation or not, is quite simply sounds: Amount, diversity and sonic qualities. And we all know that the Oasys covers that with ease.

But to further enhance the workstation concept would probably mean more physical controllers to control sound. Rolands D-Beam, although being a bit gimmicky, is an excellent example. (My left arm often flies into the air when I sit in front of the Oasys. Embarassed) Obviously, adding physical controllers to the Oasys is not something that we'll ever see.

The Oasys now has seven different synths under it's Linux hood. Would sales increase if it had for example 9, or 12?.. Difficult to say, but something tells me that it should be easier to sell a $13,000 instrument (yes, that's how much the Oasys 88 costs here in Sweden..) that has 7 or 9 or 12 synths, rather than the original three.

In fact, I spent some time yesterday looking for info on the Oasys on different music shop sites all over the world, and almost all of them do not mention STR-1, LAC-1 or MOD-7!!!! That's madness!

More EXi, EXs and EXf? Yes, yes and yes.
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Daz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I think would be a better product offering, and would sell better, is not packaging the technology into such horizontal things as a 'Workstation', but rather offering something more modular.

I want the MOD-7, AL-1 and STR-1, but I don't really want them in this yucky workstation environment. Right now I'd like them in my computer when I am recording or in a performance box (i.e. keyboard + controllers + screen) that I can just play as a live/performance instrument.

I would have preferred to buy an AU or VSTi shell in which I can choose to buy/install the Korg technology I like. Or a box like an M50 into which I can also choose to load the components I want. Those components would be synth engines, effects, a sequencer, Karma etc.

It would be better if Korg were able to offer a number of hosts (hard and soft) and then a raft of software components that you choose to install. It's the ultimate extension of what we see today in the Legacy Cell and KKS. They could sell predefined packs of components with a host so that people could buy something off the shelf. It seems bizarre to develop the Radias, the M3 and Oasys and only have minimal technology sharing between them.

Failing that, Korg should start making guitars ... they sell way better than keyboards Wink

2c,

Daz.
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sirCombatWombat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curvebender wrote:
But to further enhance the workstation concept would probably mean more physical controllers to control sound. Rolands D-Beam, although being a bit gimmicky, is an excellent example. (My left arm often flies into the air when I sit in front of the Oasys. ) Obviously, adding physical controllers to the Oasys is not something that we'll ever see.


Now that you mention it, I have used this to control the OASYS http://www.chproducts.com/retail/t_pro_throttle.html. I initially wrote my own program for converting the joystick data to MIDI, but now there's http://www.virtuasonic.com/mijoypro.htm to ease things up a bit.

This one is also very cool http://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=prod_axis-64, but it's very expensive so I made my own version with this http://www.ergodex.com/mainpage.htm. Picture here www.elisanet.fi/sirwombat/SMTChromaticDX1.jpg. And use this http://www.autohotkey.com/ and a bit enchanced version of qwertymidi from this page http://public.sreal.com:8000/~div/midi-utilities/ to send the keystokes to MIDI. I think there might even be a VST plugins to do qwerty-keyboard to MIDI conversion so please use them instead, the qwertymidi/autohotkey combo is highly technical and a bit frustrating.

I have also dreamt of the Haken Continuum, and the Analogue Systems French Connection ring/wire controller looks very promising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XsLwkc67lw

But a sophisticated virtual reality environment could be built to do all that and more. I would probably try to program something if the technology would not be prohibitively expensive.
Except that a VR French Connection would probably feel a lot like a theremin without any tactile feedback. Smile
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Samu Teerilahti
Composer, IT Researcher, Blacksmith

Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer.
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sirCombatWombat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz,

I think a modular approach would be cool, but in a computer, no. Besides the OASYS is kinda modular already. But I'm intrigued by the concept of modular synths, and a wall filled by different kinds of cord patchable OASYS modules would be heaven on earth. Smile
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Samu Teerilahti
Composer, IT Researcher, Blacksmith

Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer.
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curvebender
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirCombatWombat!!

You seem to have put your anvil and hammer to good use!! Very Happy

(says a guy who's only electronics merit is the dismantling of a 1992 external hard drive, and not being able to put it back together..)
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sirCombatWombat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curvebender wrote:
SirCombatWombat!!

You seem to have put your anvil and hammer to good use!! Very Happy

(says a guy who's only electronics merit is the dismantling of a 1992 external hard drive, and not being able to put it back together..)

Very Happy

I just remembered that I have dismantled a wireless joystick with three pots, several buttons and an USB receiver. I have to dig it up and build something from it, perhaps a music glove. Smile
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Samu Teerilahti
Composer, IT Researcher, Blacksmith

Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer.
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kenackr
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirCombatWombat,

I'm curious as to why you buried it in the first place?

Ken
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sirCombatWombat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenackr wrote:
SirCombatWombat,

I'm curious as to why you buried it in the first place?

Ken

I really don't remember. I started the project before we moved, and it was buried in the process. It is possible that I got some other great idea and forgot, I'm really good at that too. Smile
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Samu Teerilahti
Composer, IT Researcher, Blacksmith

Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer.
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kenackr
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand completely. Many things seem to get lost in moves.

Ken
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I' m always interested in the big picture. I’m particularly concerned for the future of the hardware synthesizer. That's fundamentally what interested me in OASYS. It didn't matter about it's actual list of features. Simply put - it is the pinnacle of current expression of what hardware synthesizer / workstation innovation is today. It’s amazing, it’s flawed and it’s incomplete all at once– but – there isn’t anything better available to day. So it’s _THE_ best expression today of what a synthesizer is. So I decided, for my music to enjoy the best possible advantage, that OASYS must surely be worth owning.

I believe that that sort of reasoning lead to the extraordinary success of the DX7 and Korg M1; in the minds of hundreds of thousands of musicians who recognised clearly the opportunity presented to them. I have been quite surprised that OASYS didn't sell, say 20,000 units, even given its steep price. Clearly, most think the future is with generic computer/DAW/Softsynths.

So I'm wondering - is there a role for the hardware synthesizer / workstation in the future of electronic music. And, if so - what , if anything, would lead to the sale of three hundred thousand synthesizes / workstations - and - would OASYS have an impact on that. While DX7 and M1 sold in hundreds of thousands of units, that's probably the number of seats of Logic and Cubase have sold. Hence on the face of it, the workstation has been replaces by the DAW.

So is there any hope of hardware synthesizers selling in even tens of thousands of units ever again. And if so - what would be required features? Any earnest answer to that question would, in my view, be very valuable to the likes of Korg, and point the way forward for hardware synthesizers.

Daz, with all due respect, is proposing dismantling the OASYS into its basic software components; and that seems very sad to me. I only have to sit in front of a Piano, a CS80 (with incredible hardware control and no memories) or a Minimoog or the OASYS – to realise how special superlative hardware. Hence I believe the hardware to be vital to instantaneous and spontaneous performance and live / realtime composing. MOD-7 or STR-1 without the OASYS's Vector Joystick turns them into Logic Sculpture and FM8 in my view - 2 dimensional, mouse manipulated, CPU dependent plugins rather than living, vibrant and realtime controlled synthesizers.

So I suppose another approach to my question is – is OASYS, wart and all, a valid pointer to the future of worthwhile hardware synthesizers, or is it time to wind all that down in the face of cheap and free of charge Softsynths and DAWs? To me, its a no brainer – OASYS is vital and central; but I’ve found too often that I’m out of alignment with the general consensus.

Kevin.
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Vadim
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KORG's (and also Yamaha's) new Arranger keyboards, have sounds that Workstations don't even have. (Tyros 3, PA2Xpro..) and many other professional tools.

sadly, since most musicians move to software, keyboard companies are giving up and giving much more attention to Arranger keyboards.

KORG had a chance with their OASYS, to knock software/DAW off their feet, but oh well...
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Daz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Daz, with all due respect, is proposing dismantling the OASYS into its basic software components; and that seems very sad to me. I only have to sit in front of a Piano, a CS80 (with incredible hardware control and no memories) or a Minimoog or the OASYS – to realise how special superlative hardware. Hence I believe the hardware to be vital to instantaneous and spontaneous performance and live / realtime composing. MOD-7 or STR-1 without the OASYS's Vector Joystick turns them into Logic Sculpture and FM8 in my view - 2 dimensional, mouse manipulated, CPU dependent plugins rather than living, vibrant and realtime controlled synthesizers.


It's not breaking it into pieces as much as being able to assemble the pieces as you wish. I have a line6 pod, I can use it as a hardware unit or I can use it as plug-in. Its fantastically flexible and the best of both worlds. Similarly I enjoy having the Korg effects on my Oasys or Radias, but also on the computer in the MDE-X. It's all about being to composite the tools you want out of the pieces and being able to fit the tools to your way of working. We all work in different ways, and we even work differently as individuals when composing and recording. Sticking all the latest goodies in a workstation format which is a decade+ old, isn't great and doesn't work well with contemporary environments. And it isn't fun to use.

I didn't say it should all run on the computer, rather than on a real instrument ... I just want to have BOTH options Wink

Daz.
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