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sirCombatWombat
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Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 236
Location: Finland
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 Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| kenackr wrote: | SirCombatWombat,
| Quote: | | What about surround mixing, with the possibility to purchase a Dolby encoding license. The joystick would make a perfect surround pan pot, and there are enough outputs. |
My opinion is that while surround sound is certainly hot in home theater and other video applications, that it's probably not the feature that would sway the average keyboard person to buy the unit. Most average users are either going stereo to CD, Tape, or DVD for music recodings and not linking up with video. |
And that is sad, I have few good surround albums (audio only) and the sound is from another planet. The depth and clarity achievable by five channels is spectacular! But the audio in movie theaters is not doing anything to promote that, with the average levels splitting eardrums!  I really would want most of the music I buy in surround format, but it is not available. I have always thought that the reason is the complexity of surround mixing and/or the price of the equipment. But the market is ready, with 5.1 home theaters available in the average livingroom today.
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Samu Teerilahti
Composer, IT Researcher, Blacksmith
Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer. |
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peter m. mahr
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 1030
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| sirCombatWombat wrote: | | kenackr wrote: | SirCombatWombat,
| Quote: | | What about surround mixing, with the possibility to purchase a Dolby encoding license. The joystick would make a perfect surround pan pot, and there are enough outputs. |
My opinion is that while surround sound is certainly hot in home theater and other video applications, that it's probably not the feature that would sway the average keyboard person to buy the unit. Most average users are either going stereo to CD, Tape, or DVD for music recodings and not linking up with video. |
And that is sad, I have few good surround albums (audio only) and the sound is from another planet. The depth and clarity achievable by five channels is spectacular! But the audio in movie theaters is not doing anything to promote that, with the average levels splitting eardrums! I really would want most of the music I buy in surround format, but it is not available. I have always thought that the reason is the complexity of surround mixing and/or the price of the equipment. But the market is ready, with 5.1 home theaters available in the average livingroom today. |
I am using a 5.1 surround setting and only can agree. It is a completely different thing and does not cost that much. With dp5.1 and MOTUs Traveller it is within financial reach. Together with the Neuron this is not that bad. Charlie and Ebse heard some of it in my studio.
peter |
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sirCombatWombat
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 236
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| peter m. mahr wrote: | | sirCombatWombat wrote: |
And that is sad, I have few good surround albums (audio only) and the sound is from another planet. The depth and clarity achievable by five channels is spectacular! But the audio in movie theaters is not doing anything to promote that, with the average levels splitting eardrums! I really would want most of the music I buy in surround format, but it is not available. I have always thought that the reason is the complexity of surround mixing and/or the price of the equipment. But the market is ready, with 5.1 home theaters available in the average livingroom today. |
I am using a 5.1 surround setting and only can agree. It is a completely different thing and does not cost that much. With dp5.1 and MOTUs Traveller it is within financial reach. Together with the Neuron this is not that bad. Charlie and Ebse heard some of it in my studio.
peter |
I'm one step away from 5.1 production, I have the FireFace400 and Sonar 7 (and in few days ver.8.), that is 8ch capable system. Only thing I'm missing still is three Genelec 8040 to complete the monitoring, and that's bit of an 'ouch'. I'm also considering if three 8030's could complement my two 8040, but they would probably not, and my sub (Tannoy TS10) while ok sounding is a bit underpowered too.
Have you tried to do 5.1 work on the OASYS?
_________________
Samu Teerilahti
Composer, IT Researcher, Blacksmith
Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer. |
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peter m. mahr
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 1030
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi Samu,
I recorded for example "water meditation" into dp5.1 and used it to move the sounds within the surround field. Of course I am biased, therefore I hope that Charlie will comment on that.
I am using JBLs as they were not that expensive. As I moved my studio I have to reinstall everything new. But as you mentioned at the moment there is no real place to use it outside my four walls.
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Charlie
Platinum Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 997
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| peter m. mahr wrote: | Hi Samu,
I recorded for example "water meditation" into dp5.1 and used it to move the sounds within the surround field. Of course I am biased, therefore I hope that Charlie will comment on that.
peter |
And so I do. 
Well, I heard it at Peters "old" Studio and I liked it - sounded great! 
I was esp. surprised how easy the surround mixing could be handled with the "panorama-dish" Digital Performer offers. I expected it to be more complex and difficult. To handle this with a joystick is a good idea and thus the Oasys might be a good tool for this, too.
If it's recorded well and one has a proper surround-system at home I agree that there is a real difference to convetional stereo. But IMHO that's seldom the case yet. Yes, there are quite some people out there with a home-cinema-system. But I don't think that there are more than 30% in the market (at least not more in Austria/Germany). And of these many have cheesy monitor-systems. You cannot compare that to Peter's JBLs in his studio or Genelecs etc. And the real hifi-freaks I know all listen to CDs in stereo (with VERY expensive monitors and amplifiers  ).
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sirCombatWombat
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 236
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| peter m. mahr wrote: | Hi Samu,
I recorded for example "water meditation" into dp5.1 and used it to move the sounds within the surround field. Of course I am biased, therefore I hope that Charlie will comment on that.
peter |
I was thinking in similar lines, and perhaps breaking more complex sounds up to smaller pieces and panning them separately in DAW would give even more control. Of course if the panning would be built in the OASYS the control possibilities would be quite something.
| Charlie wrote: | And so I do.
Well, I heard it at Peters "old" Studio and I liked it - sounded great!
I was esp. surprised how easy the surround mixing could be handled with the "panorama-dish" Digital Performer offers. I expected it to be more complex and difficult. To handle this with a joystick is a good idea and thus the Oasys might be a good tool for this, too.
If it's recorded well and one has a proper surround-system at home I agree that there is a real difference to convetional stereo. But IMHO that's seldom the case yet. Yes, there are quite some people out there with a home-cinema-system. But I don't think that there are more than 30% in the market (at least not more in Austria/Germany). And of these many have cheesy monitor-systems. You cannot compare that to Peter's JBLs in his studio or Genelecs etc. And the real hifi-freaks I know all listen to CDs in stereo (with VERY expensive monitors and amplifiers ). |
I have observed couple of these 'hifists' as we call them, and the hoobaloo around their systems has been similar to the worlds biggest barbeque neighbor envy syndrome. (I hope we don't have many hifists here, or I'm so getting flamed. ) I do not generally have anything against them if they don't cause harm, but some have.
My home theater has older Sony STR line 6.1 amplifier, 5 pretty ok Tannoy passive speakers but really crappy old Sony subwoofer, still it performs impressively. I think that properly mixed 5.1 track is more forgiving to the sound system than a 2.0 track is.
Of course the production monitor is supposed to sound dull, but I'm so looking forward to being able to aquire the rest of the 5.1 setup. 
@Daz: Would it be ok if I made a poll in the lines of "How many friends, you included, do have 5.1 or larger surround setup at home?, >50%, <50%", and also posted links to it at other areas of this forum?
_________________
Samu Teerilahti
Composer, IT Researcher, Blacksmith
Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer. |
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Kontrol49
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 1280
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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:-&
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Last edited by Kontrol49 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Daz
Retired
Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 10829
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| sirCombatWombat wrote: |
Btw. I think that the polyphonic routing of different engines (and that includes the program editing capability in combi mode) would be more important than all the features in the above list combined. |
Me too
Last edited by Daz on Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Daz
Retired
Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 10829
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| sirCombatWombat wrote: | | @Daz: Would it be ok if I made a poll in the lines of "How many friends, you included, do have 5.1 or larger surround setup at home?, >50%, <50%", and also posted links to it at other areas of this forum? |
If you post it in the General Music or Off Topic areas it will get the most exposure. |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Daz -
Please move it to that forum it you see fit - it'd very interesting to get the broadest opinions and thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Kevin. |
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sirCombatWombat
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 236
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Daz wrote: | | Me too |
| Daz wrote: | | sirCombatWombat wrote: | | @Daz: Would it be ok if I made a poll in the lines of "How many friends, you included, do have 5.1 or larger surround setup at home?, >50%, <50%", and also posted links to it at other areas of this forum? |
If you post it in the General Music or Off Topic areas it will get the most exposure. |
Do you feel it would be bad to post links to the poll in other areas? The reason I'm asking is that I only frequent the OASYS forum, and feel that links would give more visibility. Anyway, I'll make the poll in the General Music area and wait your comment on the links.
_________________
Samu Teerilahti
Composer, IT Researcher, Blacksmith
Current hardware:
OASYS 88 (EXs1-3, STR-1, LAC-1, MOD-7, EXb-DI), Haken Continuum (˝), Alesis A6 Andromeda, Novation Supernova II ProX, Doepfer A-100 BS2, PC, 220lbs Anvil, 3.3lbs Hammer. |
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Daz
Retired
Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 10829
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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That's fine with me and I look forward to seeing the results. It's surprised me how many of the apps I use have jumped to offer support surround when I felt that other functionality might have better merited developers attention.
Daz. |
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jg::
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 685
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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I'm coming in late to this thread, but it's an interesting subject - trying to come up with features that would lead to sales comparable to the two biggest-selling synthesizers, DX7 and M1, both a long time ago. I'm sure both Yamaha and Korg spend a lot of time trying to do just that!
And I'm also sure that, just before the release of their big babies, both companies were very nervous. They may have suspected that they had got it right, and hoped for big sales, but they did not "know" if those products would be well received, and that they would go on to hit the record books. Both companies were simply trying to stay "with it", and stay in business another year.
There's no magic formula, especially now. And with the march of computers, I don't think M1-like sales will ever again be possible. But still, people will always need something physical to play, other than a computer keyboard! And people will always need portability. And perhaps there will always be a need for an "all-in-one" keyboard....
jg:: |
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vEddY
Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 1263
Location: Zagreb
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Daz wrote: |
Failing that, Korg should start making guitars ... they sell way better than keyboards
2c,
Daz. |
They're already doing that, in a way Have you seen Vox guitars?
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kenackr
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Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 521
Location: Corpus Christi Metro Area
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thinking a little more about the surround sound concept as applied to video, the simulation there is to make the listener who is watching the video to feel more a part of the video experience. To be in it, as it were.
In most real listening applications for audio, the performers are usually grouped at one spot and the audience sits or stands before them. In an outdoor setting, even with side fill, the audience still normally gets it's primary sound field from the front.
When you go to an indoor venue, you certainly get more bounce off of side & back walls, but the audience perception is still pretty much front facing.
I think that only the musicians who are playing the music get the "surround sound" feeling with the primary fields from each coming from mutiple directions. Perhaps the best feeling of "being in the band" comes to the musicians who are playing accoustically together for their own amusement and not lined up as in most stage acts for the audience viewing pleasure.
This could become a new way of letting the audience experience "being part of the band" for audio presentations but in my opinion would not become more prevalent until "home theater" systems become the norm.
One drawback to audio is that the average Joe or Jane on the street usually only sit and listen to popular music in concert settings and when at home are cooking, cleaning, etc,etc, doing other things when the music becomes more of a background function and not top of mind.
2C2U
Ken
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Last edited by kenackr on Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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