Korg Forums

Rob Sherratt · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 4590

Hi mrkorg,

The GrandPianoRX uses the same single multisample throughout, there are no separate samples for pp, mf and ff. I expect the samples were recorded mf. The advantage of using three sets of recordings for every note (pp mf and ff) is that it will hopefully result in a very realistic sounding Steinway piano - the tones generated on the Steinway are very different depending how loudly you play it.

You can have the sound free of charge when it is ready which at current rate of progress will be a few weeks time.

Best regards,
Rob

a.schemkes · Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject:

Rob Sherratt · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 4590

Progress update ... some good news!

It's gonna fit on the Pa800 as well as the Pa2x.

I've just finished editing and levelling all 29 samples for the SteinwayPP multisample, total size 16.1 Mbytes, and also finished the 29 samples for the SteinwayFF multisample, total size 17.31 Mbytes.

So by the time I've done the SteinwayMF samples, we will have a total .SET size of about 50 Mbytes.

The only minor problem I've come across so far is that one Iowa University sample I wanted to use - Piano.ff.B5.aiff (5.7mb) - appears to have some really bad "aliens squeaking" type noise superposed on it, and I can't use the sample. I think someone must have had a mobile phone nearby which created RF interference during the recording. So for that note I will substitute both the C5 sample and the Bb5 sample.

And if anyone wants a really good free PC-based sound editor package for doing sample and audio editing on a PC, I thoroughly recommend the free version of Wavepad from NCH software, downloadable here:

http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/index.html

Regards,
Rob

Sharp · Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject:

That's good news Rob.
Back to back non-stop it's really days work involved in all this, so I hope people appreciate your efforts for something you are going to give away for free.

I hope it also gives people a good idea of what actually goes into creating a "Single" sound. To have to actually go somewhere to sample a piano and to then turn it into a Sound for a keyboard involves an awful lot of effort.

Regards.
Sharp.

Rob Sherratt · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 4590

Hi Sharp,

I fully agree with you. It's a huge amount of work which means the true cost in labour is at least $4,000 to do something like this from scratch. If I had to set up the recording equipment and capture 268 digital recordings from a top Steinway piano on ADAT, all played perfectly evenly at the same temperament, then I could not spare that amount of time on top of my share of the video editing that I still have to finish.

The fact that Iowa University did all that recording work with one of the best Steinway pianos in the world is the thing that inspires me to have a go putting the rest of the pieces together for the Pa2x. I've always wanted a top quality layered Steinway digital piano sound, and its about time I put into practice the stuff Chris taught me about sampling and constructing sounds. I can hardly edit the videos of him doing it, and not learn about it can I?

Anyway, Sharp, thank you for your ongoing help and support in this forum, both in threads like this and in private mails.

Best regards,
Rob

Rob Sherratt · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 4590

Next question, does anyone know the answer to this, please ...

At present the samples are stereo recordings. There is different phase offset between the L and R channel depending on which note is played. This phase offset is going to make it almost impossible to loop the stereo sample correctly because the zero crossing points do not coincide. Hence if the right channel of the recording is cleanly looped, the left channel will be making clicking noises due to mis-alignment with zero crossing boundaries. If you look closely you can see in this image the portion of the upper channel that recurs and which makes a natural loop section, however the lower track does not coincide with the same zero crossing points due to the phase delay issue that I am worrying about at the moment.

I have very accurately cut out the preamble of each stereo sample at the nearest zero crossing point (on both L + R) immediately before the note sounds. I think that I may need to separate all the samples into separate mono (L and R) samples so they can be looped cleanly. I will not edit the preamble at all after this point. However the Pa2x/ Pa800 will import stereo aif samples and the manual says it splits them into two mono samples internally.

Here is the crucial question I need help with:

At the moment I am thinking to play safe and go for option (b) even though it's more work on the PC initially. Any advice would be most appreciated.

Best regards,
Rob

Rob Sherratt · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 4590

BasariStudios · Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject:

Rob, on your question:
Yes, PA will split them and you can access each separetely but LOOPing on PA
itself will make your life miserabe and sometimes on certain Samples you will
never find the LOOP point, i would still prefer going software looping, i find
Awave very usefull, i dont know what you are using or if WavePad has LOOP.
_________________
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Sharp · Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject:

Hi Rob.

You should never split a stereo sample in order to loop them independently. If you do that you will get a “ping pong” effect like an Auto Pan that won't be heard at the start of the sample play back, but you will hear it as soon as you reach the loop points and it's generally not nice. Sort of creates a step in the playback of the sample that can be clearly heard kicking in.

Looping at the zero point will not work either for a piano sound. You need to use your ears and eyes to see and hear the resonance of the strings pattern so you can place your loop points where you hear the resonance repeating.

Then the only way to get a loop is to loop with a cross fade. Nothing else will work.

Regards.
Sharp.

Rob Sherratt · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 4590

Hi Sharp,

Thanks for puting me straight. I will keep the stereo samples like they are without splitting them. I've just been reading about cross fading the loop region on the Pa2x.

Hi Nedim,

Thanks for your tip. I tried Awave Studio (30 day trial) but I can't get the samples as clean and clear as with WavePad. Maybe it's down to my lack of familiarity with it. Wavepad has a very complex noise filter based on resampling the "quiet times", and believe me these samples do need cleaning up. I did use the free noise filter plugin with Awave but the results were not very good. Maybe there is a commercial one that you use. I am sure Awave can be configured to work very well with the right components but I don't have the time or money at the moment.

Best regards,
Rob

BasariStudios · Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject:

Yes Rob, i use a commercial version but most of my Editing work i do in
Cubase or ProTools, i use Awave only for LOOPing which s very helpfull.
LOOPing really sucks anywhere, recently i was creating some patches from
JV1080 and the strings were stereo and also each side wasnt the same, it
sucked, once you loop with a crossfade, the whole thing would turn into mono
so you hit the key, a nice stereo sample and few seconds later went mono.
It was a nightmare, then i used other methods and it worked.
_________________
http://www.basaristudios.com
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL.
2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.

Rob Sherratt · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 4590

Sorry to say it, but I just reached the point of swearing.

I spent two 14-hour days preparing all 87 sample recordings as stereo .aif files, 16 bit samples, 44.1 ksamples / sec, made sure all samples files were less than 2 Mbyte in size. Got the samples aligned in volume and sounding perfect.

With great anticipation, I loaded all 87 samples onto the Pa2x's HD. Started to create the new sound "Steinway Grand". Went into sample edit mode and tried to load the first sample, selected the first .aif file and the damned Pa2x says "Format not supported". I then tried to use Import and the files can not even be seen.

What the heck is going on?

AIF files are described as a supported format on the Pa2x in all documentation and on Korg's web site. My files are in the correct .aif format with correct .aif (not .aiff) finename extensions like the documentation says. WavePad edits them qute happpily, they play back on my PC.

Can anyone else please verify whether you can or can not load .aif sample files on your Pa2x with OS v2.01 ? You need to start from Sound play mode, then press RECORD, then do either Load Sample or Import Sample from the drop-down menu.

This looks like it is a showstopper for this project, I'm afraid folks.

Many thanks,
Rob

BasariStudios · Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:54 pm Post subject:

Thats something that i always have to deal with, PA800 doesnt read just any
AIF or WAV file, deppends under which program they were saved, there is no
need to rework, you just have to reconvert them with something else, you wont
loose the LOOPing point. If i save under Cubase they wont work, then i have to
bring them to Awave and export them as WAV, AIF or KSF things...damn KORG!
_________________
http://www.basaristudios.com
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL.
2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.

Sharp · Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:26 am Post subject:

Hi Rob.

There's more than 1 variation of the AIFF format and countless types of WAVE formats. KORG only support 1, so chances are your files are ok, it's just that they are in the wrong AIFF format.

I've just downloaded one of the samples, looped trimmed and processed it for you.
http://www.irishacts.com/mp3/PianoffC3.aif

Try loading that into your Pa2X.

If that works, then I will need to look at what software your using to see if that can save to the correct format.

Regards.
Sharp.

Rob Sherratt · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 4590

Hi Sharp,

Thanks for helping. Your sample loaded, thank you. The editor I have been using is WavePad, downloadable for free here:

http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/index.html

I have tried loading your sample into Wavepad, and without editing it I resaved it in both 16 bit 44.1 ksample/s format and in 16 bit 48 ksample/s format. Neither of my resaved files would load on the Pa2x.

I tried to put these on your file download site for you to see but guess what, .aif files are an unsupported format Wink

So it looks like there is something wierd with the files saved by Wavepad. However the files load and play in Windows Media Player and in Quicktime on the PC. So I'm not sure we can say it is a Wavepad error.

Which sample editor software do you use?

Best regards,
Rob