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rikkisbears
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Posts: 1691
Location: NSW , Australia
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 Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Wow Rob,
you're increbibly game starting on a project like this. Can't imagine the amount of hours you must be putting into this.
I've been pottering away trying to put together an XG mapped Drum Kit for my PA800. Thanks to Sharp's mention of Sample Robot, I was able to sample the drums on my PSR. Very basic because I'm only using the demo version. There's a bit of editing involved cutting blank bits out of the wav samples. Better if I knew what I was actually doing, still, it's an interesting exercise haahaa
[quote="Rob Sherratt"]
_________________
best wishes
Rikki
HOBBYIST
PA5X 88 note
Wavesart CFX 9ft Grand Piano 🥰
Wavesart Japanese Grand Piano
Yamaha PSR SX900
Band in a Box 2023 |
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Rob Sherratt
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 4590
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Its finished!!!
For the Pa2x there is a 70 Mbytes sound sample set, and graded action between FF and MF samples. The PP sample recordings were too quiet to use, I could not amplify them and remove the noise in a satifactory way.
For the Pa800 it is 36 Mbytes, just the FF samples, but it still sounds very nice.
There are a few uploading issues to sort out, I suspect because of the large file sizes, and Sharp is helping with this.
I will publish the file download links as soon as possible.
Meanwhile I produced another demo MP3 of the finished sounds on the Pa2x which I will send to everyone who emailed me so far. And if anyone else wants the recording in the meantime, send me an email not a PM!!
Best regards,
Rob |
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mrniceneasy
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 1125
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Tremendous work Rob. Thanks for the Demo! 
_________________
Regards, Keith [pa1000]
www.korgpahelper.yolasite.com/ |
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Rob Sherratt
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 4590
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I've just uploaded a tutorial with illustrations on the manual steps involved in merging Sounds and Samples from multiple .SET files. This is to assist you with incorporating the Steinway piano sounds and samples into your own .SET files. It's not too difficult if you follow the instructions to the letter!
The link to the file is here:
(tba tomorrow)
I am sure that eventually a utility to run on a PC will be available to automate this process.
I hope that Korg will feel able to provide some assistance to the developer(s) with a supported API library to open the .PCG, .KMP and .STY file types. This will greatly encourage the development of 3rd party sound libraries and will grow the market for Pa keyboards considerably. This is now the number 1 priority request from all Korg Forum members, as far as I can tell.
Best regards,
Rob |
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Rob Sherratt
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 4590
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| rikkisbears wrote: | Wow Rob,
you're increbibly game starting on a project like this. Can't imagine the amount of hours you must be putting into this.
I've been pottering away trying to put together an XG mapped Drum Kit for my PA800. Thanks to Sharp's mention of Sample Robot, I was able to sample the drums on my PSR. Very basic because I'm only using the demo version. There's a bit of editing involved cutting blank bits out of the wav samples. Better if I knew what I was actually doing, still, it's an interesting exercise haahaa |
Hi Rikki,
All I did with the samples was to cut the leading silence out, and normalise the amplitude to 100%. Then I listened to the sample, and when the "tail" of the sample became almost inaudible, I cut the rest of the sample at that point. Then I applied the "envelope" function with a linear 45 degree slope at the tail to make sure the sound level reduced to zero. For low notes, I needed a 10 second sample, for high notes I needed a 4 second sample. I think cymbals may need 10 seconds, and drums may need 5 seconds or so. But you have to play it by ear.
The samples I used were all stereo .aif files. After manually topping and tailing them in this way (using WavePad) I then loaded all the samples into Awave Studio, and I assigned the note values (eg B1, F#2, A3 etc) to them by hand. I also used Awave's auto tuning function to work out whether the samples were sharp or flat, and I added tuning offsets. However the auto tuning function in Awave only got it right for 50% of the notes and it made wild errors for some samples which I had to fix by tuining by ear on the Pa2x later on.
You will have to make a similar decision for your percussion samples to decide which note plays which sample.
Then I used the auto split function in Awave to split the stereo samples into two mono-samples, Left and Right. It did this completely automatically. The Pa2x does not seem to load and play samples correctly if they are stereo, it seems to convert them to mono and forget about stereo. However if you load a pair of half samples L and R into adjacent OSC's and pan one left by 63 and the other one right by 63, then it works fine.
Then (still in Awave) I created two multisamples Steinway L and Steinway R, and I dragged and dropped all the corresponding samples. I filled in the dialog boxes that popped up to specify the note range over which each sample was spread. So my G#1 sample was spread from G1 to A1, eaach sample only spread by one semitone each side. In your case with percussion samples, you will have one sample per note and you won't have to spread them at all when you assign them to the multisample.
Then I exported each multisample as a separate Korg Trinity KSC script which also created a subfolder containing the KMP multisample and another folder containing all the KSF samples.
I copied these files to a USB stick, plugged it into the Pa2x and from Sound mode, I pressed RECORD. Then from the drop down menu I selected "Import" and I selected the KSC script file on my USB stick. It then imported everything completely automatically - the multisample and all samples. I then selecetd "Write" from the drop down menu. Then I imported the other KSC script based multisamples.
Then I previewed the sounds by playing them in sample edit mode. They However in sample record mode, the Pa2x/Pa800 seems to use a simplified "extreme low fi" playback engine. But you can at least hear whether the right samples are assigned to the right keys. And you can hear which samples are out of tune. I used an acoustic piano tuner (my ears) to listen to each sample, and I made offest tuning adjustments for each sample. Awave studio had got the tuning completely wrong for 50% of the notes, so it was a lot of work on the Pa2x to fix this. Some types of drums, triangle, cymbals, cowbell etc do have to be tuned in this way as well.
After doing the tuning I selected "write" to save the modified multisamples and I also used the Export function to save the modified .KSC, KMP and KSF files back to my USB device.
Then I exited from Sample edit mode and I started editing the Sound itself by assigning the corresponding samples to each OSC. In my case I used the existing Korg Grand Piano RX Sound as a template, and I recomend that you use an existing Drumkit for your samples.
Then eventually I was able to save my user Sound and samples into a new .SEt file and that is what I've just uploaded to Sharp's file share area.
I see a new PM has just arrived and I expect that's Sharp telling me that the files are ready to publish.
The problem I could foresee with Extreme Sample editor is that I don't think it can generate multisamples in Korg Triton/Trinity format, and with Awave Studio that was a massive time saver for me. Maybe I'm wrong about that though, so please llet me know?
Best regards,
Rob |
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mrkorg
Platinum Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 548
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Rob,
I just listened to the new mp3 demo 'messinabout', it was fantastic. The piano is breathtaking. It sounds even better than the previous demo. Well done.
I have 2 questions:
I see you exported each multisample as a seperate Trinity KSC script. From what i know the PA does not recognise .KSC files. How did you manage to work around this?
In editing the sound, did you select a similar sound (Grand Piano RX) as a template and change the OSC count?
Thanks
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KORG PA2XPRO |
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Rob Sherratt
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 4590
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| mrkorg wrote: | Hi Rob,
I see you exported each multisample as a seperate Trinity KSC script. From what i know the PA does not recognise .KSC files. How did you manage to work around this?
In editing the sound, did you select a similar sound (Grand Piano RX) as a template and change the OSC count?
Thanks |
Hi Steven,
Thank you for your kind comments. When I heard the quality of the recordings that had been taken by the University of Iowa I had a hunch it would be worth the effort!
The Korg Trinity/Triton Multisample format has some capabilities that are not supported on the Pa2x/Pa800. Specifically if you create a multi layer sound within the Multisample then it will load on an M3 but not on the Pa2x/Pa800. Hence no M3 layered multisamples will load on the Pa2x. But I now know how to convert them so they will ... and now so do you ...The Pa2x/Pa800 sounds are constructed by having up to 16 multisamples each assigned to one of 16 OSCs, but each multisample can only contain a single layer. So, that is the "secret". Just prepare or convert your multisamples using Awave studio into a single layer.
Also there is a problem with the Pa2x importing certain samples. For example the .AIF and .KSF sample formats have the capability to input note information in the form "this is a C#3 sample and it is 23 cents out of tune". From the experiments I have done, if either of these fields in an .AIF file or a .KSF file are NULL then the Pa2x will not load the sample or its corresponding multisample. So using the PC based sample editors I mentioned earlier, I populated all .AIF sample files with the "missing" note description information that was not present in the University of Iowa's .AIF files. I then used Awave studio to export the samples into .KSF format.
For the Sound, yes I used Korg's "Grand Piano RX" as a template and I changed the sample assignments for OSC 1 to 8 so that the Steinway samples were used instead of the factory samples. I left the RX noises and the pedal resonance tailpiece samples exactly as Korg had programmed them. I also used the same EFX assignments as when I produced the modified "Grand Piano RX" sound that I wrote up in an earlier tutorial. I did have to play with the velocity mapping ranges quite a bit, and I also had to balance the volume of the new multisamples differently from how the factory multisamples were balanced.
I confess that I have no clue how the envelope shaping and filtering functions work. Korg seem to have disabled them all for the factory Grand Piano RX sound, so I left them disabled. Maybe someone with more expertise than me could work out how to loop the samples and then use wave shaping to get a good sound but with less RAM memory storage required? I feel a bit like Blaise Pascal when he said in 1656,
"Je N'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parceque je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte." // I have only made this letter rather long because I have not had time to make it shorter."
I omitted to mention this earlier, but I want to state my thanks to Reuben (John) on the Pa1x forum who has been my source of inspiration with modifying Piano sounds on the Pa keyboards. It is also John who suggested in private that I checked out the sampled Steinway sounds from the University of Iowa.
Best regards,
rob |
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Rob Sherratt
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 4590
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Happy Birthday everybody!! Χρονιά Πολά
I am late sending you a birthday gift last time you celebrated. Since it was my 51st birthday two days ago, and I've now sobered up, I thought I would share some of the presents that I received ... I hope when you receive good things you'll also do the same for forum members 
My grateful thanks once again to Sharp for hosting the files and for helping me in many ways, to Nedim for pointing me in the direction of Awave Studo, to Reuben for suggesting I contact the University of Iowa, and to Lawrence Fritts from the University of Iowa Department of Electronic Music for his kind permission to use and redistribute to Korg Forum members the Steinway piano sample recordings produced by his department.
Best regards,
Rob
1. This is the full Steinway sample set for the Pa2x and it requires 71 Mbytes of sample RAM all by itself. It takes about 2 minutes to load on the Pa2x. This file will not load on the Pa800 unless you have one of the Pa800's that has been modified with 128 Mbytes RAM, for example by EMO in Turkey. The Steinway piano is constructed using a double set of 30 layered stereo samples, one set recorded FF and the second set recorded MF. So there are 60 samples in total. This is provided free of charge to all Korg Forum members by Rob Sherratt and the University of Iowa Electronic Music Department. The files must not be resold or redistributed without permission. File size = 33.64 Mbytes
http://www.irishacts.com/downloads/index.php?cid=11
Select the option that says "SteinwayPa2x".
2. This is the cut down sample set for either the Pa800 or the Pa2x. It requires 31 Mbytes of free sample RAM. It takes about 1 minute to load on the Pa2x. This version of the Steinway piano is constructed using 30 stereo samples, recorded FF. It gives a very bright sound, but without the nuances of less percussive MF samples that are present in the 71 Mbyte version. This is provided free of charge to all Korg Forum members by Rob Sherratt and the University of Iowa Electronic Music Department. The files must not be resold or redistributed without permission. File size = 17.64 Mbyes.
http://www.irishacts.com/downloads/index.php?cid=11
Select the option that says "SteinwayPa800".
3. This is a demo recording called "Messsin About" by Rob to give a preview of the full Steinway sound for the Pa2x.
http://www.irishacts.com/mp3/messinabout.mp3
4. This is a help file in Microsoft Word 93 format, written by Rob Sherratt in Feb 09 to tell you how to merge the Steinway sounds and samples with any other sounds and samples on your Pa2x or Pa800. This file will eventually be incorporated on the forum's new Wiki site.
http://www.irishacts.com/downloads/index.php?cid=11
Select the option that says "Merging PCM samples from various sources".
5. If you don't have Microsoft Word on your PC or MAC then you can download a free viewer from Microsoft here:
http://www.microsoft.com/DownLoads/details.aspx?familyid=3657CE88-7CFA-457A-9AEC-F4F827F20CAC&displaylang=en
Last edited by Rob Sherratt on Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mrkorg
Platinum Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 548
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Rob for all the efforts in making this set. Happy 51st Birthday.
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KORG PA2XPRO |
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mrkorg
Platinum Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 548
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:03 am Post subject: |
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UPDATE
None of the links are working. I can't download anything at all. It gives the following ERROR
| Quote: | | Error: Sorry but you are not allowed to download this file as you have exceeded the number of files you are allowed to download during this period. Please check your user control panel for more information on the limits currently available to you.. If you believe this to be in error, please quote the above error and report this to the admin |
AND
| Quote: | | Error: Your session ID does not match the session ID for this download link. If you are following this link from our site, please report it to the admin.. If you believe this to be in error, please quote the above error and report this to the admin |
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KORG PA2XPRO |
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mrkorg
Platinum Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 548
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:08 am Post subject: |
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SOLUTION
You have to register.
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KORG PA2XPRO |
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Rob Sherratt
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 4590
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Please see Sharp's mail below.
Last edited by Rob Sherratt on Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rikkisbears
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Posts: 1691
Location: NSW , Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Hi Rob,
awesome, thank you so much. I'm off to download.
Be great to have a Steinway in the house. haahaa
Got a heap of piano midifiles I've collected over the years, classical, newage, etc Be great to try them out again.
p.s.
My effort with the xg drumkit isn't all that brilliant.
I just automatically sampled my psr drumkit with the sample robot software, it saved the samples as wav files. I'm deleting the blank bits & loading them as samples into my korg.
I actually started with a new kit. I'm basically trying to hear the kit as it was sampled ie with the original volumes of the drum notes.
Sample robot sampled every note at 127 velocity. Don't know if my theory's correct, but I'm hoping this way the drum notes will match the volumes of the drum notes in the psr which may save me a lot of editing when I convert a psr style drum track to korg.
Once I get them loaded in , I'll probably replace most of my psr sampled drums with Korg drums. They're much better quality.
I'm really just using my psr samples as some sort of reference.
_________________
best wishes
Rikki
HOBBYIST
PA5X 88 note
Wavesart CFX 9ft Grand Piano 🥰
Wavesart Japanese Grand Piano
Yamaha PSR SX900
Band in a Box 2023 |
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nikola81
Senior Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 412
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Rob, happy birthday and thank you very much for this great present...
_________________
Nikola
Korg pa-800, Korg TR61, Roland g-800
Korg Kronos 61, Korg PA3X |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi Guys.
Sorry about this but this download system is new and as I mentioned, it's running as a trial at the moment with the intentions of eventually replacing the main download section here at KORG Forums. So if you run into any errors please report them to me and I will make the adjustments to fix anything required.
The problem this morning was after 500MB of bandwidth was used, it started to lock out people. Now it allows for unlimited bandwidth usage.
You DO NOT need to register to download files. The only time you need to register is if you wish to upload files, which you can do and anything you upload will be instantly available.
It's a good system, but the kinks need to be worked out. You honestly would not believe the number of settings that are required to make this thing run.
Regards.
Sharp. |
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