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KP3 Sync Failure
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Gringoise



Joined: 29 Feb 2012
Posts: 4
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

same problem, frustrating.
It's crazy, 360 euros for a toy.
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thehighesttree
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Joined: 18 Nov 2011
Posts: 584
Location: Canada East

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having never experienced any sort of clock drift in my MIDI setup, I really don't understand peoples' issue with this. It's really all on you, the musician, to make sure you capture the sample at the precise moment you want your loop to start, and the KP3 will stay locked on the clock. Is that what the problem is? If you sample a drum line perfectly into slot 1, then fumble on the beginning of the baseline in slot 2, it'll be screwed up for sure, but it'll be consistantly screwed up, meaning you'll just have to hit the sample button and try that bassline again.

I think peoples' beef with the KP3 is that it doesn't quantize the start point of your loops for you. When I record a loop from my Electribes and then mute them, I can come back in 10 minutes, unmute them and it'll still all be in sync. If you can't hit a button on time then that's your own fault...go be another DisAbleton DJ and visually line up your kickdrums ahead of time if you're too clumsy to time a quarter note. Laughing
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MarcusCarab
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Joined: 14 May 2012
Posts: 170
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I /have/ experienced a few weird sync drifts on the KP3, especially with samples taken on-board (as opposed to perfectly trimmed loops). And it definitely is DRIFT, not just a fixed misalignment - I've seen other people discuss something to do with the way the KP3 trims and loops samples it takes, which seems to be the cause.

That said, I dunno, deal with it. It's not magic. I guess for some applications it would be extremely annoying but, ultimately, a dj/producer/musician/whatever is always going to have to do some cueing and syncing themselves - that's part of the art of the whole thing. If you think keeping two KP3 loops in sync is hard, go try keeping two turntables in sync.
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Korg Gear: KP3, Monotribe
Other Gear: Boss DR-202, Casio CDP-120 Piano, Casio MT-400V (I LOVE THIS KEYBOARD!), M-Audio Radium61, Edirol Cl1 Interface, Behringer MX882 Mixer/Splitter, Yamaha MG102c Mixer
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Gringoise



Joined: 29 Feb 2012
Posts: 4
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thehighesttree wrote:
When I record a loop from my Electribes and then mute them, I can come back in 10 minutes, unmute them and it'll still all be in sync.


Please tell me how!

I synch my MC 303 via MIDI IN&OUT. KP3 in slave.
1 - I start a simple drum loop from MC303
2 - I hit the sample button IN TIME (I'm a musician, not a dj)
3 . I wait... at the beginning "cool! just a phase difference! if it will stay this sampler is great!
3 - after 2 minutes "nearly cool! it changes a bit but it is ok"
4 - after 5 minutes "WTF"
5 - after 10 minutes "unbelievable.. the the kick drum and the snare drum are playing together. "

A lot of fun if you try the same experiment resampling the INTERNAL drum machine, in master... OMG such a bad job they did at korg.
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didjeko
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Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 115
Location: Antibes

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>Gringnoise, have you made the following test ?

1. DON'T sync the machines with a MIDI cable.
2. Set the tempo on the MC303.
3. Set the same tempo on the KP3.
4. Sample a loop from the MC303 in the KP and wait listening.

It will stay in sync.

Is it an absolute necessity to sync the gear via MIDI instead of setting the tempo manually on the two machines ? I think that in many cases this MIDI sync is not usefull because it can be set easily by hand - Even if I'm sure some people are about to answer here that it is absolutely necessary all the time.
I made some tests in the âst after reading this post and came to the conclusion that there are no sync problems - but I never use MIDI sync.
for example, let run a loop in Pro tools and launch a loop on the KP (both at the same tempo, of course). Been waiting half an hour, no drifting appear.
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neotechtonics
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Joined: 01 Jul 2010
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Location: Durban, South Africa

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a fan of MIDI syncing at all... the KPRO and KP3 seem to chug along for ages, still in sync, WITHOUT MIDI clock... with eachother and with my EMX. also I like not MIDI syncing the KPRO and KP3 because I like halving or quartering the BPM on the KP3 (eg KPRO: 120BPM, KP3: 60BPM/30BPM), makes some of the time based effects alot more manageable and the FX release can be used as an echo to carry a sound thru a transition/into a break etc at a nice 4/4 tempo.

If there's drift and it bugs you... try without sync and see which is worse.
atleast without sync you can nudge the BPM to get things back in phase.
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OTHER GEAR: Roland SP404, MC303 -- Akai MPC-2500 SE -- Zoom R16 -- effects pedals -- DJ-gear -- Access Virus B
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Gringoise



Joined: 29 Feb 2012
Posts: 4
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

didjeko wrote:
>Gringnoise, have you made the following test ?

1. DON'T sync the machines with a MIDI cable.
2. Set the tempo on the MC303.
3. Set the same tempo on the KP3.
4. Sample a loop from the MC303 in the KP and wait listening.

It will stay in sync.

Is it an absolute necessity to sync the gear via MIDI instead of setting the tempo manually on the two machines ? I think that in many cases this MIDI sync is not usefull because it can be set easily by hand - Even if I'm sure some people are about to answer here that it is absolutely necessary all the time.
I made some tests in the âst after reading this post and came to the conclusion that there are no sync problems - but I never use MIDI sync.
for example, let run a loop in Pro tools and launch a loop on the KP (both at the same tempo, of course). Been waiting half an hour, no drifting appear.


Many thanks for your advice. I will try even it's not comfortable at all for a live situation. The Idea is to store BPM inside the MC303 and forget to set it during the live act.
Anyway, I have to be honest: the in-synch time increase around 10 minute (enough for a song) if I set KP3 in INT and MC303 in SLAVE.
The advantage of this method is that I have to set the BPM only once and the visual reference of beats (blinking leds) are synchronized.

x punpkomg: no way for controlling KP3 by LivePodXT, or DIY or Berhinger FCB1010.
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neotechtonics
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Joined: 01 Jul 2010
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Location: Durban, South Africa

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the podxt mostly for effects now but I'd like to use it for midi control. Its nice with emx for pattern selecting/ program changes and using expression pedal for parameter changing live. Want to use it with kpro but it doesn't send note data for the sample pads, so either gonna get the fcb-1010 or better, a midi event processor plus from midi solutions. Think event processor could be put to excellent use with the podxt... And I can think of tons of other uses for it. with the event processor I will be able to map whatever I want with the PodXT
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OTHER GEAR: Roland SP404, MC303 -- Akai MPC-2500 SE -- Zoom R16 -- effects pedals -- DJ-gear -- Access Virus B
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MarcusCarab
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Joined: 14 May 2012
Posts: 170
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the KP3/KPro doesn't have MIDI Start/Stop/Continue implementation (except in ext.ctrl mode) there's virtually nothing to be gained by MIDI-syncing it with anything else. All it saves you is the two seconds it takes to match the BPM on a second machine. You'll still need to keep your starts/stops manually synced.

Moreover, when the KP3/KPro is a *slave* it can get really, really confused. Because it's designed to be run on a continuous clock signal, and it just calculates the bpm constantly based on incoming pulses - so it doesn't play friendly with machines that start and stop. When I tried hooking a kp3 up to Logic on my mac, I got some REALLY weird results - if you manually scrub the playhead through the song on the computer, Logic sends clock pulses to match, and the kp3 keeps re-interpreting the BPM - so it would keep jumping way up and down in tempo every time I did almost anything in Logic other than press play and let it run.

KP* MIDI clock sync = not that useful
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Marcus Carab (aka Leigh Beadon)
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Korg Gear: KP3, Monotribe
Other Gear: Boss DR-202, Casio CDP-120 Piano, Casio MT-400V (I LOVE THIS KEYBOARD!), M-Audio Radium61, Edirol Cl1 Interface, Behringer MX882 Mixer/Splitter, Yamaha MG102c Mixer
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SU7A7S



Joined: 17 Jan 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Dublin, Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: KP3 Sync Failure Reply with quote

jrizzo wrote:


Oh, if anyone cares, we're at www.thecasualdistractions.com, where you'll find 50+ hours of unintentionally off-beat electronic nooding and counting.




I really like the music, nice work
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VladiKuz



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm discover, here the problem is not only with MIDI synchronization with the playback of looped samples! KP3 has a general drift of synchronization even own effects with its own BPM generator!

A simple test without any sampling, without external MIDI connection - just with internal drum pattern:

1. Select program "drM.4 ElectrBeat"
2. Set BPM = 90 (via knob PROTGRAM/BPM)
3. Set first beat (SHIFT+TAP/RANGE[ALIGN]), button will cycle flash "green-red-red-red"
4. Touch the pad in bottom left corner and press HOLD, in sync with the green flash.
5. Now you see are drum beats synched with green and red flashes.
6. After 3.5 - 5 minutes you will see, that base drum beats out of sync with flashes!

It's just a mind is not understandable as Korg could prevent such bad timing, even within the device itself (without any external synchronization) ?!
I'm shocked...
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Spheric El
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Joined: 21 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It says in the manual that internal drum machine will drift sync unless triggered by ext midi.This is a hint at the problem with syncing audio loops with external midi clock sequencers.
This was a real problem for me.I'd just bought a 2nd KP3 when I discovered the drift of samples with midi clock,it was a total pain ,messing up an otherwise excellent work flow.Trigger loops on and off manually while playing external sequencers along side.
For those who have no problem-great ,it doesn't effect your methods..those that it does effect heres my work round. Yes, I've found a way to lock those loop buttons with external midi clocks with no drift what so ever.
Equipment needed:
Midi /CV type device or something that can receive analogue sync signal and convert /generate a midi clock. I use a Monotribe with MidiMod by Dintribe.
And a 2nd KP3 or a device to record a strip of sync audio to play into the analogue sync input on device.
I generate a sync signal and sample it into a KP3 at the desired tempo then play that signal into my monotribe ,which then kicks out a stable clock signal that is locked to any KP sampling I do. I can't change tempo and it does lock up my 2nd KP3 as a sync box ,but I can always record the signal to my digi 8 track for 15 mins and play that to the 'Tribe.
You can sample your sync straight from output,but I generated mine with an ER1 snare sound pulsing out either 16 /bar or 8, with a short decay.Just make sure the polarity and volume are correct.
All you need to do then at beginning of every jam is make sure your KP tempo is already set,load your sync sample.RE Sample just to make sure KP wont drift the sync signal at this particular tempo (-samples recorded at different tempos drift from each other although both played from single KP3 device) then play back into sync in on analgue to midi device (my Monotribe).
Not so useful in a live situation sure, unless all your tracks run at the same tempo (and I do know someone who's tracks do).
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Spheric El
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Joined: 21 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....Useful tip for in the studio,I havn't tried it live.
PS everything else syncs externally to the Monotribes midi out.Just to clarify.
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Spheric El
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Joined: 21 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having re-read this thread I would be very interested to hear from users that experience no drift of sample loops with external gear (and kp3 set to Int clock ie no midi clock).
It seems some users were fine running along side ext seqs for long periods of time.
Anyone ? TheHighestTree?
It would be great to hear from you. What equipment is used? Is USB midi used?
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thehighesttree
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Joined: 18 Nov 2011
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Location: Canada East

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried this out since with my rig and it does indeed seem to lose its marbles noticeably around the 4-minute mark @ 136BPM. I'm using DIN MIDI connections with clock supplied by an ESX. Not so bad if you master clock has an easy way of resetting the pattern, but not good. It's never something I've had to rely on for more than transitional stuff, but if it's an issue you can try holding Shift and hitting the BPM button on your material's 1-beat every 16 bars or so to force the sample back on track.
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