M3's "Locate" button messing with Radias Level and

Enochian · Post by **Enochian** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:27 pm

So...

I start up a new song, in sequence mode of course, and use midi channel one to control my external gear, in this case my radias. prog chg and bank chg are turned off in the radias, leaving ctrl chg PitchBend and SesEx turned on. i record a track, hit stop, and then start to listen, and everything's fine.... but once i hit "locate", it changes my radias's level and pan to 127 and center, across all timbres!! even when i leave sequence mode and go to any other mode, (global, etc) and then return, it also resets the pan and level!

this is unacceptable.

i tried moving the radias to midi channel two and then it changed my OSC 1 (to FORMANT) as well as level and pan!

i know what's doing this, i think, because when i turn off "Ctrl Chg" in the radias, it fixes the problem, but it also takes away my joystick "modwheel" control.

and it's not just the radias, I have a similar problem with the Roland Sh 201, not with level or pan, but it changes the voice everytime i hit the "locate" button!

unacceptable!

what began as an indispensible function is quickly becoming something i try to avoid at all costs. But i'm not here to vent, cause that wont solve a thing!

If there is any hope that this problem of the locate function doing more than it's supposed to (or at least more than i'd like it to) being changed? And maybe a solution to the pan being changed when i exit and enter sequencer mode? it's not very appealing to me to have to reset my level and pan values everytime i decide i'd rather not wait until the song ends...

Thank you for reading this. with any luck, you just might know the answer (or at least know the reason the locate button works this way) cause God knows, i don't have a clue.

(p.s. i realize there's a hefty chance there is no solution, but it never hurts to ask, right?)
(p.s.s. i also posted this to the karma-labs forum, the more the merrier!)

this is probably why they made the radias expansion, huh?

Synastikki · Post by **Synastikki** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:57 am

You'll have to delete the program change command from the beginning of the sequence in your sequencer.

Enochian · Post by **Enochian** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:19 am

Thank you for the reply. I'll be honest I'm not sure (yet) how to do this within the M3's sequencer. I'm sure it has something to do with the Event Edit function i never use

Either way, I'll read up on that and let everyone know how it turns out. Thanks again!

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:38 pm

The problem is that the radias will accept MIDI CC volume changes and apply them to all timbres, completely screwing up the balance of the timbres. It will also reset the program. Same for pan

The 'uesful' feature here is that in the M3 you can set a level and pan for each track, which is transmitted as MIDI volume and pan messages on external timbres too. My main advice would be to set your radias timbre level and pan using the mixer in sequencer or combi mode just like you do for other timbres.

In the MIDI filter pages you can also turn off certain messages from being transmitted (timbre/track MIDI filter in the M3 sequencer/combi mode), 'other' may turn it off but I am not sure.

Enochian · Post by **Enochian** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:33 am

Thanks for the reply X-Trade

I have (some what) found a solution to my problem, and it does involve editting the pan and level values on the m3 (or at least matching them to what i am using on the radias

) but i do like to have seperate levels and pans for each timbre on the radias, so I've had to run each timbre on a seperate midi channel on the m3's sequencer, not ideal, but it fixes the problem. i had also found out that turning off the "other CC" option (in the radias mind you) would fix the problem as well, but i lost other controls that werenm't vital to me, but i'd rather not lose them... (haven't tried it in the M3 yet...)

i had posted this "solution" on the karma-labs.com forums, and totally forgot to follow up here at the korg forums

but i certainly apprieciate your input and response, as this had been taxing my patience

stephen kay (at Karma-labs.com forums) had also mentioned using the EXT 2 track status settings to change program banks, and that it might (as this was purely an educated guess) reset the bank when it was triggered, but i haven't quite figured that out yet, haha... I'll keep looking into it before i question any further

really my problem seems to have a few different solutions, and mainly, as long as i can use and record the modwheel (joystick up) to modulate the settings within the radias, and not have the level, pan, or whatever switching up on me everytime i hit the "locate" button, I'm happy as a clam!

Thanks again!

maver · Post by **maver** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:57 am

I have the exact same problem!!!

I can't sequence any of my other synths with the M3. Every time I press locate and start/stop, it sends some really weird CC messages to all connected synths via midi. This is driving me nuts.

Right now, I only have a Virus TI connected to the M3, and every time I press Locate/Start, the Virus gets messed up and I have to re-select the patch.

Just out of curiousity, I recorded this message(s) inside Cubase, just to see what are the messages being sent. Turns out there is like 7 different CCs being sent out with the Locate / Start buttons: Bank Change, Program Change, Pan, External Effect (1,2,3) On/Off, and a few others. This is a serious bug for Korg, and I found it shocking that only 1 other person is having this problem; isn't anyone sequencing external gear with the M3?

I just ordered a Fantom G, since I found its sequencer to be light years ahead of the M3, I still love the M3 for the amazing sounds and Karma, but this type of sequencer bug is completely unacceptable.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:28 am

The program change, bank change, level, and pan are features, not bugs.

It means you can pick a patch from an external multitimbral sound module, and set up the level and pan for each timbre just like you do in the mixer for normal internal programs. Without you having to overwrite the programs on the external device with different volume and pan settings...
Really, I consider it great integration. I can save the volume levels and patch change numbers in the sequence of the song rather than going around and setting it up manually.
They are sent at the start of the song to initialise all of the external gear

The problem is when it gets to the other synths having unusual architectures. I'm not sure about those other CCs but I imagine not all synths use them as they are specified in the GM specification. I use a KARMA Workstation with my Radias-R and I have to say the implementation of MIDI volume and pan control in the Radias is just plain frustrating... Having the same problem as the OP.

Anyway, if you use EXT2 mode and select the program and bank numbers through the M3 then you don't have to go around setting each external synth to the right patch individually. I *think* it should stop some other messages being sent too, that are usually transmitted in EXT mode for controlling another KORG workstation type - e.g. another M3, Triton, etc.

I don't know about the Virus TI, but apparently the bank change messages for the Radias are:
[00,00] Banks A - H
[00,01] Banks I - P

There are also bank changes for individual timbres if you want to work that way, using the Radias as a four part multitimbral sound module.

maver · Post by **maver** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:35 am

X-Trade wrote:The program change, bank change, level, and pan are features, not bugs.

The last thing I would do is consider this features. The Locate button, should do only one thing: bring the sequencer back to the position (usually bar 1). The start/stop should do only one thing as well, and that is start/stop the sequence.

When the above also mess up the external synths, thats not a feature, but a bug.

Why should the M3 send out all these weird messages "by default" and there is no way to turn them off???

I can't sequence any of my external synths because of this bug.

Thats like buying a new car, and every time you turn on the AC, all your connected devices (iPod, GPS, etc...) are turned off? That's one hell of a feature!!

kanthos · Post by **kanthos** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:22 am

<programmer>

A bug is something where the designers intend one thing to happen but in reality, something else happens.

</programmer>

This isn't a bug, since despite what *you* think is correct, the *designers* think it's correct. You may not like it, and I do understand why you don't, but it's not a bug.

Here's why it's extremely useful. It isn't "messing up other synths"; rather, it's letting the sequencer on the M3 control other devices exactly, as x-Trade explained. Think about it. If you recorded volume change messages into your sequence, what would you expect to happen when you hit the Locate button? The volumes on your external devices should jump to whatever volume would be at that point in the sequence, otherwise when you pressed Play, things would be at the wrong volumes.

Similarly, if you haven't used any volume or panning changes in your tracks, it makes sense for the Locate button to recall the settings at the start of the track.

If you think of the M3 as a master sequencer and controller, in charge of other hardware devices, it makes perfect sense that it should also control their volumes and panning to fit in with the other instruments in your sequence. This is hardly like your car example.

If this is a really big problem, why not use a software sequencer, which'll doubtless give you a lot more control and editing precision than the M3's sequencer?

maver · Post by **maver** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:25 am

I really don't think the designers intended to make the Locate and Start/Stop send out all these messages. Are you one of the designers? I doubt it.

kanthos wrote:If you recorded volume change messages into your sequence, what would you expect to happen when you hit the Locate button?

Its going to read the recorded automation. Just like the M3 itself records RTSL1 for example, and when it goes to the beginning of the sequence, it just plays from the beginning. No need to reset it to its old value.

The volumes on your external devices should jump to whatever volume would be at that point in the sequence, otherwise when you pressed Play, things would be at the wrong volumes.

Again, this is not correct, since at the beginning it will just read the automation.

Similarly, if you haven't used any volume or panning changes in your tracks, it makes sense for the Locate button to recall the settings at the start of the track.

No, it doesn't. If I haven't used any panning there is no reason for the M3 to set the panning to -127!!!!

If you think of the M3 as a master sequencer and controller, in charge of other hardware devices, it makes perfect sense that it should also control their volumes and panning to fit in with the other instruments in your sequence. This is hardly like your car example.

It shouldn't control their volume or pan, if "I" am not controlling it. WTF?

This is *exactly* like my car example, since the M3 turns off the Virus patch and I have to reset it

If this is a really big problem, why not use a software sequencer, which'll doubtless give you a lot more control and editing precision than the M3's sequencer?

Like I said in my original post, I used Cubase to record these messages. I have a DAW, but for my type of music, hardware sequencers are the best because of their really solid timing. Thats why I wanted to sequence with the M3, but now changed my mind, because of these bugs! Its just hassle that shouldn't be there in the first place. I mean seriously, I have to reset every single patch on every synth thats connected to the M3? That means I also need to save the edited version on every synth before I do that, then finally I need to record the sequence, and then reset everyting again? You gotta be joking.

The M3's sound is amazing, and Karma is the most brilliant piece of software I have ever seen!! But this Sequencer bug is just a major flaw, IMO.

kanthos · Post by **kanthos** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:23 am

maver wrote:I really don't think the designers intended to make the Locate and Start/Stop send out all these messages. Are you one of the designers? I doubt it.

Maybe you're right, but it's generally considered poor taste to scream BUG! rather than report the symptoms and expected behaviour vs. actual behaviour. And clearly you're not one of the designers either, otherwise you could end this discussion with certainty (and presumably go and fix the bug instead of wasting time posting online about it).

I also know that if some people who are NOT the designers (and no, I'm obviously not, I do write software but not for Korg) offer a perfectly reasonable explanation of how something works, even though others disagree with it, odds are it isn't actually a bug. I've worked on a number of software products and I don't know that I've ever seen something behave in a reasonable, logical manner when the developers never intended it to be that way, particularly when it would take EXTRA code for this behaviour to happen - in this particular case, it takes no effort for the M3 NOT to send messages, but someone had to do work to make the M3 send those messages. Also, I believe older Korg workstations work the same way, which makes it much more unlikely that this is a long-standing bug that Korg has forgotten or ignored.

So no, I don't know with 100% certainty that this is a bug, but I just provided a good deal of evidence why it's more likely that this is the correct behaviour. What argument supports your side, save personal opinion?

maver wrote:It shouldn't control their volume or pan, if "I" am not controlling it. WTF?

This is *exactly* like my car example, since the M3 turns off the Virus patch and I have to reset it

But you DID control it. You set (or ignored) the pan, volume, program/bank, etc. in the sequencer. It's sending values that you either set explicitly or never bothered to change from the defaults. From my perspective, it's not like the car example because the M3 has control over the devices connected to its MIDI OUT, while the AC is clearly a different system from the stereo in a car and under no circumstances would it make sense for anyone to expect that turning on the AC would turn on the stereo.

Look, we're obviously arguing over the semantics of what the sequencer should or shouldn't do. By all means be annoyed with it and look to an alternative; I'm not in any way trying to convince you that the M3's workflow should be your workflow of choice. I personally would want and expect it to work the way it does, while you do not. That doesn't make me better or right, just as much as your comments don't automatically mean the developers are wrong. But if you don't want to see that this IS a viable workflow, albeit one you don't like, then you should at least find other ways to pass the time online besides this thread, because it's unlikely anyone will give you any meaningful response besides "It's working as expected and here's why", which you seem to have dismissed out of hand.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:28 pm

maver wrote:
X-Trade wrote:The program change, bank change, level, and pan are features, not bugs.
The last thing I would do is consider this features. The Locate button, should do only one thing: bring the sequencer back to the position (usually bar 1). The start/stop should do only one thing as well, and that is start/stop the sequence.

When the above also mess up the external synths, thats not a feature, but a bug.

Why should the M3 send out all these weird messages "by default" and there is no way to turn them off???

I can't sequence any of my external synths because of this bug.

Thats like buying a new car, and every time you turn on the AC, all your connected devices (iPod, GPS, etc...) are turned off? That's one hell of a feature!!

I already explained why the M3 sends out those messages.
When you hit locate, it returns to the beginning state of the song - that means all devices go back to how they are at the start of the sequence. That means that they have to be set back to whatever program, level, pan, etc, that they should be.

It also means you can work entirely in one box - you set the levels for each instrument from the M3, rather than going around each one and setting them back manually every time you want to start working on it again.

Importantly, the status of your external gear is stored with the song, not in your head or on some piece of paper. Just like it would be with a DAW with VSTs.

I also explained that you can turn it off.

maver · Post by **maver** » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:24 pm

OK, I can now confirm that the Fantom G does not send out this crap like the M3 when you press the LOCATE and START/STOP equivalents.. I can finally work in peace, and damn is this sequencer amazing. I am never going back to my DAW for sequencing again, except audio only.

Roland definitely nailed it with the midi sequencer. Everything is SOLID and FAST (Roland DSP is a million times faster than the M3).

Plus the fact that I can actually do midi editing while the Sequencer is running is the main reason why I got it, as the M3 is SOO limited when the Sequencer is running.