|
Korg Forums A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world. Moderated Independently. Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
macalister Guest
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: Missing Flash Memory to keep our own samples...Ooops |
|
|
Preload is basic instructions to load your sounds from disk upon power up, and means there is no Yamaha style of Flash Memory available. Otherwise they would have promoted and advertised it.
The Kronos is similar to the Alesis Fusion, but more professional.
Alesis Fusion had an 80gb hard drive built in, you could save samples to the hard drive, it had 4 sound engines, but you always had to load your samples to use them. Yamaha is the only synth company that uses Flash Memory that you don’t have to load upon power up because with Flash RAM sounds are already instantly available.
Korg will come with Flash memory options in a synth after they come with the Kronos Pro/EX/Studio/LE/Xtreme/CD models for the next 6 years. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
X-Trade Moderator
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 6494 Location: Leeds, UK
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
SSD is flash. And Sharp stated in the 'feedback' thread that it apparently takes 10sec to load 1GB of samples, and you can tell the KRONOS to automatically load your samples at startup. _________________ Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro |
|
Back to top |
|
|
meatballfulton Senior Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 351
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Still need more info on what has to be loaded and what gets streamed. The initial specs claimed that out of the factory over 700MB of the RAM is already allocated for the onboard expansions (why aren't these stored in ROM?). _________________ I sing the body electric |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MartinHines Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3036 Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
meatballfulton wrote: | Still need more info on what has to be loaded and what gets streamed. The initial specs claimed that out of the factory over 700MB of the RAM is already allocated for the onboard expansions (why aren't these stored in ROM?). |
Because the RAM is the ROM, because there is no ROM
This is similar to the OASYS The RAM was used to run the Operating System and hold all of the sounds. The sounds in the OASYS were loaded from the internal hard drive to RAM on power up where they were available for quick access.
As I have mentioned on other posts, I suspect Korg doesn't want to degrade performance of the SSD, which acts as "ROM" for the large pianos and is used for audio recording. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Scott Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 1015
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Missing Flash Memory to keep our own samples...Ooops |
|
|
macalister wrote: | Yamaha is the only synth company that uses Flash Memory that you don’t have to load upon power up because with Flash RAM sounds are already instantly available. |
Yamaha is not the only company doing that... Nord did it first in the Electro 3 and Wave and Nord Piano (and now does it in the Stage 2), Kurzweil does it in the PC3K.
But as has been mentioned, the 30 gB SSD is also Flash. It is a slower kind of Flash than used by Yamaha/Nord/Kurzweil in that it is not directly accessed as RAM, however Korg has implemented virtual memory streaming for the SSD to get equivalent functionality... and much, much larger capacity. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 18197 Location: Ireland
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just so people know a little more about the Yamaha FlashRom Chip.
On a Tyros 4 it takes over 1 hour to write 1GB of data to that memory. Yes.... over 1 hour. And when your done, if you want to at any point changes something or add something, it's going to take a while. How long depends on how much you want to change.
Fill the 1GB chip and you can add 1 minute to the bootup time of the keyboard. I see no reason to suspect it's any different for the motif.
Regards
Sharp. _________________
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
kday Full Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Missing Flash Memory to keep our own samples...Ooops |
|
|
Scott wrote: | macalister wrote: | Yamaha is the only synth company that uses Flash Memory that you don’t have to load upon power up because with Flash RAM sounds are already instantly available. |
Yamaha is not the only company doing that... Nord did it first in the Electro 3 and Wave and Nord Piano (and now does it in the Stage 2), Kurzweil does it in the PC3K.
But as has been mentioned, the 30 gB SSD is also Flash. It is a slower kind of Flash than used by Yamaha/Nord/Kurzweil in that it is not directly accessed as RAM, however Korg has implemented virtual memory streaming for the SSD to get equivalent functionality... and much, much larger capacity. |
SSD is not FLash ROM.
SSD is just a faster hard drive, you folks stop deceiving and fooling yourselves.
Kronos is a synthesizer that uses a hard drive for sound loading/saving and disk streaming. Korg hasn't graduated to implementing the Flash ROM feature found in Yamaha keyboards yet.
With Flash there is no load time.
With SSD and other Hard Drives there is load time. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 18197 Location: Ireland
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | you folks stop deceiving and fooling yourselves. |
You should have read my post above yours first.
Quote: | With Flash there is no load time. |
It takes 1 Hour to load the sounds onto it.
It adds 1 Minute extra for the keyboard to boot.
Very slow at being updated .
I'd hardly call that no loading times. It's slower than the Kronos is every way imaginable.
Regards
Sharp. _________________
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Scott Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 1015
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Missing Flash Memory to keep our own samples...Ooops |
|
|
kday wrote: | SSD is not FLash ROM.
SSD is just a faster hard drive |
Technically, SSD is flash. As I said, a different kind of flash. It is definitely not a hard drive, though the analogy can be made since code on an SSD cannot be executed "in place" but must be copied (or streamed) into RAM, whereas the other kind of flash is seen directly as RAM.
(tech info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_ram )
Regardless, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Based on how Korg has implemented it, from what people here and elsewhere are saying, there appears to be no boot time or sound access time advantage to the Yamaha method over the Korg method. But the Korg method gives you potential access to a way, way, way bigger library. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kday Full Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Missing Flash Memory to keep our own samples...Ooops |
|
|
Scott wrote: | kday wrote: | SSD is not FLash ROM.
SSD is just a faster hard drive |
Technically, SSD is flash. As I said, a different kind of flash. It is definitely not a hard drive, though the analogy can be made since code on an SSD cannot be executed "in place" but must be copied (or streamed) into RAM, whereas the other kind of flash is seen directly as RAM.
(tech info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_ram )
Regardless, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Based on how Korg has implemented it, from what people here and elsewhere are saying, there appears to be no boot time or sound access time advantage to the Yamaha method over the Korg method. But the Korg method gives you potential access to a way, way, way bigger library. |
Facts
1. SSD/Hard Drive there is load time, just faster.
2. SSD/Hard drive can and will play out like normal hard drives.
3. When the machine is cut on all the sounds has to be loaded.
Facts 'Flash Ram'
1. Flash Ram there is no load time it's already loaded upon power up.
2. Flash Ram plays like ROM with no type of drive issues or problems associated with hard drives including SSD.
3. When the machine is powered on all the sounds are already loaded, meaning no load time.
With Flash Ram never any failure.
With SSD hard drives typical drive failure from use and needing to replace it. And other compatibility issues when exchanging them, plus the future issues you'll run into when newer models replace the current ones that work for now. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kreischweide
Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 1
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Missing Flash Memory to keep our own samples...Ooops |
|
|
kday wrote: |
SSD is not FLash ROM.
SSD is just a faster hard drive, you folks stop deceiving and fooling yourselves.
Kronos is a synthesizer that uses a hard drive for sound loading/saving and disk streaming. Korg hasn't graduated to implementing the Flash ROM feature found in Yamaha keyboards yet.
With Flash there is no load time.
With SSD and other Hard Drives there is load time. |
You can hardly compare SSD to HDDs. No spin-up time, access times below 0.1ms (hdd 5ms+), no seek time, no fragmentation effect and bandwith mainly limited through the accessing interfaces. You can easily get SSDs to run 250mb/s on a simple sata300 interface but can go higher if you integrate the interface into the system bus.
I dont see any scenario where a human handled device would need any specs above those of a SSD. Thats something I never understood on those workstations. You stream stuff, you dont need to load them into RAM to get things started. You use RAM to handle the buffers and pass the data to the output interfaces. Its all about access time to avoid latency. No need to care about load time. A sample begings with byte 0 and then you stream it.
Maybe I'm missing the main advantage of Flash ROM over SSD but I see none. It just raises the cost without providing greater storage size.
Quote: |
1. Flash Ram there is no load time it's already loaded upon power up.
|
Why load stuff you dont use. Thats what storage is for. Its uneconomical to store stuff on a more expensive storage device than needed.
Quote: |
2. Flash Ram plays like ROM with no type of drive issues or problems associated with hard drives including SSD.
|
Issues with SSDs? Uhm?
Quote: |
3. When the machine is powered on all the sounds are already loaded, meaning no load time.
|
Yeah, a RAM full of stuff you dont use, cant replace and has nearly no write performance.
Quote: |
With Flash Ram never any failure.
|
As with SSD. You get very good MTBF values from the manufacturers.
Quote: |
With SSD hard drives typical drive failure from use and needing to replace it. And other compatibility issues when exchanging them, plus the future issues you'll run into when newer models replace the current ones that work for now. |
So how many Flash Roms did you exchanged or replaced? Did you even try to access your Flash Rom with your PC? I dont know what tricked you into this statement.
Last edited by kreischweide on Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
EvilDragon Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 1992 Location: Croatia
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kronos boots up in 10 seconds. Beat that on Yamaha XF. kday is very wrong. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Scott Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 1015
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Missing Flash Memory to keep our own samples...Ooops |
|
|
re: "When the machine is cut on all the sounds has to be loaded"
The way Korg does it, only a very small portion of the sounds have to be loaded at power-up, so boot time is fast. The rest of the sound is streamed off the SSD in real-time as needed.
re: Flash Ram there is no load time it's already loaded upon power up.
For whatever reason, machines with regular flash RAM don't load up instantly either.
I would not assume a Kronos boots more slowly than an XF (or any other flash board)... let's wait until we can try it and see.
There's also the issue of "fast enough." If a unit boots in 10 seconds, that's fine. If another unit boots in 5 seconds, does it really matter? Especially if the one that boots in 5 seconds has far fewer sounds? Once the Kronos boots, you have access to 12 gB worth of sound out of the box (expandable to 30). Even *if* some flash-based unit boots more quickly, it will not have nearly as much of a library available. Hey, an actual Rhodes piano has zero boot time, but it only gets one sound.
The point is, until we get some actual boot time specs, this conversation is completely academic.
re: "Flash Ram plays like ROM with no type of drive issues or problems associated with hard drives including SSD."
My understanding is that the faster Flash RAM and the slower flash used in SSD (or even SD cards) all can degrade with extensive writing. When it comes to keyboard use, there is much more reading than writing, which helps keep them extremely reliable for the long term. But I'm at the edge of my knowledge here. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kday Full Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Flash Ram is far superior to SSD hard drives.
SSD drives are gonna fail like typical HDs, you're gonna have to replace them over time from use. The brand compatibility may change over time and finding the right one needed may become scarce over the years, just like a typical hard drive.
The Kronos is just a better version of the Alesis Fusion.
It's not on the Yamaha Flash Ram technology scale yet.
They may implement that in their next set of synthesizers in 6-8 years. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vEddY Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 Posts: 1263 Location: Zagreb
|
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
if they implemented this ssd/dfd in the right way and i think they did, flash ram is completely unnecessary and too expensive option of limited value in today's world. I will disassemble the Kronos when i see one and check out all of the details, but dfd way is a better way. And ssds aren't problematic at all in terms of reliability or fail easily. Very reliable and fast technology. _________________ Check out http://it-review.net. Reviews and news - hardware, software and musical instruments.
Personally? LPI. RHCE, RHCI, RHCX, RHCVA. MCITP 2008 certification done. MCITP Virtualization Administrator done. MCITP Exchange 2010 done. MCITP MS SQL 2008 done. MCT done. MCSE Server Infrastructure 2012, MCSE: Private Cloud, MCSE:Messaging and MCSE: Desktop Infrastructure done. VCP5-DV done. VCI done. MCITP: Sharepoint 2010 Administrator done. VCP5-Cloud done. VCP5-DT done. VCAP5-DCA done. VCP6-DCV done. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|