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Yamaha Sound Guy says-
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orpheus2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vEddY wrote:
But in the long run, the process remains pretty much the same and that "overhead" doesn't grow, it shrinks.
I've gone through that, but made a very different experience. New software synths and sample libraries are thrown on the market every now and again. Collecting things can become an addiction that is hardly curable. Keeping discipline is of utmost importance! With a workstation like the Kronos, you are set until the release of the successor , and only then start over the selection process.
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vEddY
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

orpheus2006 wrote:
vEddY wrote:
But in the long run, the process remains pretty much the same and that "overhead" doesn't grow, it shrinks.
I've gone through that, but made a very different experience. New software synths and sample libraries are thrown on the market every now and again. Collecting things can become an addiction that is hardly curable. Keeping discipline is of utmost importance! With a workstation like the Kronos, you are set until the release of the successor , and only then start over the selection process.

... and most of the time, you have to re-do everything from scratch, when the new synth comes out Smile

First and foremost, you need to know that I'm not the live-VSTi guy at all. In studio, hell yes. But live, nope. I'm more of a "OASYS with a rack full of other synths" kind of guy at times, but mostly, OASYS-only guy. On a side, I've been auditioning a lot of VSTi's and control software and other stuff so I'm working on that for a live setting as well, trying it out, to see how it will work. And so far, everything has been serving me rather well. For example, if you need to use a lot of samples, then you gotta have a computer as synths just don't offer a viable alternative.

So personally, more of a mix'n'match type. There are more then a few VSTi's that really sound incredible and deserve to be heard Smile Kontakt-based EastWest stuff comes to mind. Some Arturia stuff is pretty damn good as well. Spectrasonics, parts of Korg Legacy family, as well... That's why I'm thinking in that direction Smile And, as a general attitude, trying to think ahead as this is gonna happen sooner or later so I want to be ready as - yet again - synth world - up 'til recently - didn't offer a viable alternative for running VSTi's Smile
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rfoshaug
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Yamaha Sound Guy says- Reply with quote

MoonMusic wrote:
"All of you who think buying a Kronos will be a step up on the ladder to
success might benefit more from working on your songwriting, arranging,
and audio production skills. " - DavePolich

Think he's upset? HA!



If this is Yamaha's official policy ("if you think you need a better instrument you're wrong and should rater write better songs for the instruments you already have"), I guess we shouldn't expect too much from Yamaha in the years to come.

Rolling Eyes Laughing

I bet that the next time Yamaha releases a new flagship synth they will claim that it makes it easier to create music and will indeed be a step up on the ladder to success. Wink
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orpheus2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha Sound Guy says- Reply with quote

rfoshaug wrote:
I bet that the next time Yamaha releases a new flagship synth they will claim that it makes it easier to create music and will indeed be a step up on the ladder to success. Wink
Dollars to doughnuts ... Laughing
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apex wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:
The best violinists demand the best violins. The best pianists demand the best pianos (not Yamaha by the way). The best synthesists and contemporary players and composers demand the best keyboards - Korg at the moment.

If there is truth behind that Yamaha statement; I recommend that that Yamaha employee had better get the finger out. He doesn't have time to be envious of Korg or to knock the earnest musicians who'll buy the Kronos. He should already be busy saving his job - because if he's in the Motif team then his job is already on the line. Furthermore, he'd do better to learn his own company's legacy from the GX1, CS80, CP80, GS1, DX1&7, SY77&99 to the VL1; and realise that there was actually a time when people looked to Yamaha for the best contemporary instruments.

As a Yamaha fan and owner, it saddens me that Yamaha have done nothing since the EX5 but wallow in complacency and mediocrity. They have just had their butt whipped by Korg; and to repeat - I wouldn't be so smug if I were him, I'd start burning the midnight oil to design the next 'game changer' of real substance or he'll be withdrawing social welfare payments sooner than he can say "Motif screwed up my career in Yamaha"

Kevin.


kevin your statement is correct (except for the synthesis part)... but think about what the Beatles used to create the masterpieces that they have created.... and all the other oldies/but great.... there is a certain quality that comes with high quality acoustic instruments.... it's not exactly the same with synths....

he's just saying that the Kronos (just like any other instrument) doesn't automatically propel your skills.... we spend more time researching and reading about new technology vs REALLY learning our instruments.



Nobody is claiming that better instruments lead to better music by default. You don't need to explain that great musicians can make great music on poor instruments - we get that. I'm making a different point to that, namely that we are all entitled to aspire to using the best possible instruments; and to the person, all good musicians aspire to nothing less. This does not mean that we are not working hard as musicians in every regard.

So there are few slouches on this forum and those who invested in OASYS did so for very discerning reasons - including that other similar instruments, Motif among them, just do not cut the mustard when you demand true musicality at top and deep levels - and I do not use those words likely - the Motif is incredibly superficial when compared to OASYS and will be even more so when compared to Kronos. So those here debating parting with up to $4000 do not do so for superficial reasons - many if most of us demand the best, and frankly Motif is NOT it. Kronos, as OASYS, is a very, very sophisticated piece of music technology - make no bones about it. There literally is noting on the market today that comes anywhere close - mark my words.

Also - your rather blanket dismissal of music composed on synthesizers as not requiring the top instruments is quite misplaced. Vangelis, for example, made the CS80 the centre of his setup for many years only because it could match up to his incredibly well developed musicality. The same can be said of all the great electric and electronic keyboard players and composers. So it is prejudice to dismiss synthesizer based music as somewhat lesser than acoustic music an needing less in the performance sense (but you're not alone in this, many of my classically trained acoustic playing colleagues are quite ignorant on this front - it's a common misconception).

Kevin.
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vEddY
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:

Also - your rather blanket dismissal of music composed on synthesizers as not requiring the top instruments is quite misplaced. Vangelis, for example, made the CS80 the centre of his setup for many years only because it could match up to his incredibly well developed musicality. The same can be said of all the great electric and electronic keyboard players and composers. So it is prejudice to dismiss synthesizer based music as somewhat lesser than acoustic music an needing less in the performance sense (but you're not alone in this, many of my classically trained acoustic playing colleagues are quite ignorant on this front - it's a common misconception).
Kevin.

Hey Kev,

Without getting into your one-on-one discussion... Gotta say that the point about classical trained people thinking less of synth music is so very true. Had to go through that s**t in both primary and secondary music school, listening to all of the smartass people thinking that piano is more worth then a synth. I killed all of them in all areas - musicality, technique, and knowledge that was - apart from the perfect pitch - based on listening to various music genres with synth music being one of them. From Vangelis to Jarre, from Morricone to Serra, from Badalamenti to Zimmer, it's all music. It's just what a person can understand and accept and what he or she can't.

And in music, people seem more ignorrant then in many other areas. Superfical asses.
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's face it:

the OP's Yamaha rep citation is a banality with no relation whatsoever to any specific instrument, but to music making in general.

It's not worth a thread, and we could just discuss something relevant instead.
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jemkeys25
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apex wrote:
jemkeys25 wrote:
for me its not about making myself better, my boards are my tools for working, paying, gigs. unlike a lot of instruments that I read about that sit in smoke free studios for years,my boards are always gigging,dropped,knocked over, liquid spilled on them, smoke,dust, screws coming loose, scratches, broken end pieces,you name it,they get beat to heck. so evetually they get replaced. now i have a kurzweil k2661 thats in just the condition i've described after six or seven years of being dragged to gigs, and its doing funky things on gigs,so its time to replace. when i replace it,i'm not going to replace it with another k2661,no, i'll upgrade to the pc3k6,which i need for the sampling ram,unfortunatly they haven't released it yet. same with my m3, when i replace it, i'll replace it with kronos, not another m3.


well that makes perfect sense... but probably not the same situation for every one else (MOST) of the other people that are considering the upgrade...

for most of us, it's not "time for an upgrade" it's just that we "want to upgrade".....






well for me ,it's not about the cost,my instruments pay for themselves,many,many times over,it's more about convienence, I don't like racks, they're cubbed shapped,unbalanced,and i don't want to be bothered with any instrument that forces me to use an extenal controller, they're good for homes and studios, not gigging, i gig with two keyboards, I make one trip from my car,and one back. i use a k2661 and an m3, each the back-up for the other. My equiptment takes a beating, not because I dont take care of them,but things just happen over years of gigging, knocked over here, a ding there. So when I up-grade, i like boards that sound great, but i want a board that has the ability to generate thier own sounds from scratch, the k2661 can generate it's own waveforms, and the m3 has Radias,although i much prefer the moss. Music is about feel, we can achieve the most feel from an acoustic instrument.i'm sure we can all agree on that,then you have synths.
in my experience i can achieve a better feel with an instrument that creates it's own sound, over the same type of sound from a rompler. for instance over the years i've seen many patches and programs from many different boards referencing the dx7. dx clav,dx rhoads, dx this and that,but not one of those sounds sounded exactly ,or played like a real dx7. A board like a dx7 is like a blank canvas, you can paint anything you want, where a rompler is where the picture has already been painted, so you try to change the lighting,just not the same. so when i do upgrade, the kronos will be perfect, and it has a real dx7 built right in.
nice[/quote]
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Bach42t
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny how all the Kronos threads over at Motifator have mysteriously disappeared after everyone got back from NAMM and the dust settled.
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach42t wrote:
Funny how all the Kronos threads over at Motifator have mysteriously disappeared after everyone got back from NAMM and the dust settled.


Yes , really funny: suddenly not a word. Wink

As if everybody over there had suddenly decided not to name "It-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named" any more. Laughing


No, seriously: it is better for all if Yamaha stuff is discussed over there, and Korg stuff here ... Makes no sense to compare the competition all the time, instead of getting your own music making straight, with whatever you use.
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kandarv



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach42t wrote:
Funny how all the Kronos threads over at Motifator have mysteriously disappeared after everyone got back from NAMM and the dust settled.


They were moved to their "Lounge" area
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/452841/

And I agree there is no point in discussion which one is better. I'm not a fanatic, I buy what ever I want to buy for the purpose I want, any given time. Could be Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Clavia, Access, Novation... There's a lot of stuff to choose from, I won't be married to a single brand. Just my humble opinion.
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McHale
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kandarv wrote:
They were moved to their "Lounge" area
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/452841/


there are some HILARIOUS posts in that thread. A must read...
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always been a gigging rather than studio musician.

For me, the Holy Grail has always been the great sounding "Tank-built" synth - and while I have so far (knock wood) NOT managed to destroy any instrument I've had while actually AT a gig, I've come close a time or two.

Past boards include a real Rhodes, Clav, Moog Prodigy, Yamaha Combo organ, Crumar String machine, DX-100, DX7S, DX7II, D50, QS8, i-3, Wavestation EX, O1Wfd, Trinity, Triton Classic, KARMA, and Triton EX... plus a bunch of rack versions of other gear. I've gigged with (at least) 2 boards since the beginning (got as high as 5 before cutting back) and have gigged with racked "midi-slave" gear layering in sounds.

Most of my retired gear is off the stage for sound quality rather than maintenance reasons... I actually have 6 or 7 retired keyboard synths still - only 3 boards are in playing rotation. Somehow I also seem to have acquired close to a dozen rack synths, too -- blame that on GAS and e-bay-ing for sport rather than need.

Anyway, in close to 30 years of playing it has been the AUDIBLE progress in technology rather than testing to destruction that has dictated my updating my playing rig every 5 years or so. So it's interesting to me that KRONOS is coming at about that cusp... I don't know if I can really rationalize getting a KRONOS except if its purchase is offset by getting rid of the majority of my dust gathering retirees.

I'm about to move, and I think that I'll probably sell all but 2 keyboards, and I'll only hang on to rack versions with synth engines not part of KRONOS's on board bag of tricks.

BB
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mymusic42
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually worth reading the entire thread from the yamaha forum. i think the yamaha guy's comment in the original post was taken out of context somewhat.
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha Sound Guy says- Reply with quote

MoonMusic wrote:
"All of you who think buying a Kronos will be a step up on the ladder to
success might benefit more from working on your songwriting, arranging,
and audio production skills. " - DavePolich

Think he's upset? HA!


Maybe it's attitudes like that explain why Yamaha haven't been able to invent a new sound engine in the last 20 years.

Regards
Sharp.
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