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aquablue
Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: Kronos vs CP1/5 and Motif XF? |
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I am wondering, is this combination better than a Kronos?
CP1/CP5: better keyboard, but how do its pianos/epianos stack up to kronos?
Motif XF: Pros over Kronos: 4 real arps whereas Kronos has no programmable arps at all (karma too complicated to create arps on keyboard), famous yamaha acoustic samples that are beyond Kronos in certain areas, flash ram which allows me to load anything I want (vs no flash for Kronos), karma 3 vs 2 now.
Question: How much of that 12GB of samples is dedicated to non-piano/drums like strings, orchestral, world, synth samples, etc?
Also, I'm a studio musician and I have some vintage and modern analog and a couple of VA, combined with computer samples and VST. I need a workstation and perhaps a stage piano for proper piano feel. I'm wondering could Kronos be for me?
Thanks
Aqua
Last edited by aquablue on Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EnjoyRC Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Aug 2008 Posts: 746 Location: John 3:16
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Kronos vs CP1/5 and Motif XF? |
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aquablue wrote: | Question: How much of that 12GB of samples is dedicated to non-piano/drums like strings, orchestral, world, synth samples, etc? |
8+GB is used for the 2 pianos alone. _________________
Korg (Kronos 88, RK-100S 2), Behringer DeepMind 12, Roland (GAIA, A-800-Pro)
Last edited by EnjoyRC on Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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aquablue
Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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So, what is in the remaining 4GB? Seems too much on pianos. |
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EnjoyRC Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Aug 2008 Posts: 746 Location: John 3:16
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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aquablue wrote: | So, what is in the remaining 4GB? Seems too much on pianos. |
The YouTube videos all explain that both pianos consume 4GB+ each (8 layers, each key sampled individually, no loops) _________________
Korg (Kronos 88, RK-100S 2), Behringer DeepMind 12, Roland (GAIA, A-800-Pro) |
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Jon Lord Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 452 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Kronos vs CP1/5 and Motif XF? |
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aquablue wrote: |
Motif XF: Pros over Kronos: 4 real arps whereas Kronos has no programmable arps at all (karma too complicated to create arps on keyboard), famous yamaha acoustic samples that are beyond Kronos in certain areas, flash ram which allows me to load anything I want (vs no flash for Kronos), karma 3 vs 2 now. | The drumtrack feature could be used as an programmable arpeggiator by inporting midi files or create with sequencer and change the drumtrack from drums --> instrument = arpeggiator , tho this is overly complicated tbh to just use as an programmable arpeggiator, but hey' its doable.
And Stephen already said over at karma-labs that he has created the code for karma to be able to create simple arpeggios yourself (but korg has not implemented this, why i dont know, perhaps in the future?)
And about the flash(SSD) drive in Kronos, about 8GB of these are for 2x acoustic pianos, rest are for other samples used in the machine which is in total 12gb, which leaves you with 18gb of space for your own things (and as mentioned 1gb of your own samples can be loaded in 10seconds, but from the start you need to unload some other samples from the RAM to fit in 1gb of user samples, but perhaps there will be an RAM upgrade in the future who knows) _________________ - Download & share Korg keyboard patches for free.
Korg M3-73 (Radias Exb & Warwick "RC 21728 B" case), Clavia Nord Electro 3.
[On Hold]: Elka MK-88. [Sold]: Roland XP-30, Access Virus C
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aquablue
Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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So, how much memory is for other instruments? |
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aquablue
Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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If you load 1GB of your samples and have to unload korg samples, it makes no sense... you can't use them all together which defeats the purpose, no? Also, you can only use 1GB at a time compared with 2GB on the XF.
Having no proper arps is a disgrace.... the XF has 4!!!! Can you make your own arps with Karma software and how many of them can run together?
How many GB's of sounds are dedicated to orchestral and guitars, etc? It seems like it is basically all focused on piano. No wonder the guitar sounds poor compared to the XF given that the piano takes up everything.
Last edited by aquablue on Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EnjoyRC Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Aug 2008 Posts: 746 Location: John 3:16
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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aquablue wrote: | Can you make your own arps with Karma software and how many of them can run together? |
1 in program mode
4 in combination mode _________________
Korg (Kronos 88, RK-100S 2), Behringer DeepMind 12, Roland (GAIA, A-800-Pro) |
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Jon Lord Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 452 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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aquablue wrote: | If you load 1GB of your samples and have to unload korg samples, it makes no sense... you can't use them all together which defeats the purpose, no? Also, you can only use 1GB at a time compared with 2GB on the XF. | Maybe not, but it's still doable i think. If the 1gb is not enough go and buy the motif if you prioritize your own samples easy as that. I would rather get the kronos and get those awesome synth-engines, setlist mode, smooth transitions, fast interface with touchscreen, balanced outputs, separate outputs, the midi master-controller features (this is mayhem, connecting all your other gear to your kronos and controll them with ease, Goodluck doing all these on the motif) And no don't start a flamewar, im just stating some facts here. If i would have the cash i would have both the motif and Kronos, but for my use kronos wins with functionality by far compared to the motif
aquablue wrote: |
Having no proper arps is a disgrace.... the XF has 4!!!! Can you make your own arps with Karma software and how many of them can run together? | Don't know how the karma software works(dont use karma att all myself), but since karma has 4modules it should be 4x running at the same time + drumtrack. _________________ - Download & share Korg keyboard patches for free.
Korg M3-73 (Radias Exb & Warwick "RC 21728 B" case), Clavia Nord Electro 3.
[On Hold]: Elka MK-88. [Sold]: Roland XP-30, Access Virus C
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Synthoid Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2003 Posts: 3300 Location: PA, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Kronos vs CP1/5 and Motif XF? |
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aquablue wrote: | Motif XF: Pros over Kronos: 4 real arps whereas Kronos has no programmable arps at all (karma too complicated to create arps on keyboard), famous yamaha acoustic samples that are beyond Kronos in certain areas, flash ram which allows me to load anything I want (vs no flash for Kronos), karma 3 vs 2 now. |
The arps on the Motif are static versus KARMA, which offers random beats and textures. Once you've used KARMA, standard arpeggiators are somewhat boring. Plus... KRONOS also has the drum tracks feature. And as someone said, you'll be able to create your own KARMA GE's as soon as Stephen Kay releases the software.
"Famous Yamaha acoustic samples" could easily be trumped by the KRONOS. Time will tell.
The KRONOS has an SSD drive which is flash ram.
_________________ M3, Triton Classic, Radias, Motif XS, Alesis Ion |
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burningbusch Approved Merchant
Joined: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1203 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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I used to own a CP-1 and currently own the Motif XF8. Yamaha is sampled-based. Yes the EPs/APs in the CP series have some modeling but what you're hearing are the samples (yes, the FM pianos on the $5000 CP-1 do use FM but only for four EP tones and are not programmable to any degree).
Based on a lot of online research I've done since the Kronos was announced and listening to OASYS demos vs. the others and based on my experience with the OASYS in the past, I'm thoroughly confident the Kronos is going to absolutely KILL. The various synth engines (3 VAs, CX-3, MOD-7 and STR-1) just flat out sound vastly superior to trying to emulate what they do using samples. For the first time pianos will be properly executed with no loops and every note sampled. Add to the 30GB SSD, wave-sequencing, KARMA and much easier to use interface on a hi-res color touch screen.
The Motif arps are really used as phase patterns to provide auto-accompaniment and drum tracks. If you're looking for auto-accompaniment the arranger keyboards are much more capable plus Roland just announced a nice auto-accompniment module that can be used with anything.
Oh, and the "nylon guitar" in the demo was generated using Plucked String. While it might not sound as accurate as a sampled-based version it is MUCH more flexible and response to the touch in ways the three layer + slide nylon on the Motif will never do. The Kronos also has nylon guitar(s) that are sampled-based.
In my book it's not even close.
Busch.
Last edited by burningbusch on Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Zeroesque Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 451 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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aquablue wrote: | If you load 1GB of your samples and have to unload korg samples, it makes no sense... you can't use them all together which defeats the purpose, no? Also, you can only use 1GB at a time compared with 2GB on the XF. | I guess you've never owned a sampler, because the idea is that you can customize which sounds you want, not live in a fantasy world where you load every sample library in existence into memory. My computer can't load it entire hard drive into memory? What a turd! I'll throw it out now!
aquablue wrote: | How many GB's of sounds are dedicated to orchestral and guitars, etc? It seems like it is basically all focused on piano. No wonder the guitar sounds poor compared to the XF given that the piano takes up everything. | If you've determined that the sounds suck based upon some compressed demo videos on the internet, then what do you care how many gigs of samples there are? Just go play your super awesome Motif and stop making thinly-veiled attacks on a keyboard that will push everybody's technology forward.
I'm not sorry if I seem rude in this case. It drives me nuts when people attack a feature as though it's a negative thing. What if Korg didn't let you choose which samples to load? Then you'd be happy, right? Maybe they should replace Karma with an old static arpeggiator. Then you'd love it!
If I can step back from flame mode for a second, I would simply suggest waiting to actually play the keyboard and see if you like it as an instrument. Then you can worry if some supposedly missing or under-spec'd feature is going to hinder your musical performance so much as to make the instrument worthless to you. _________________ Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10 |
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vEddY Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 Posts: 1263 Location: Zagreb
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Kronos vs CP1/5 and Motif XF? |
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aquablue wrote: | I am wondering, is this combination better than a Kronos?
Motif XF: Pros over Kronos: 4 real arps whereas Kronos has no programmable arps at all (karma too complicated to create arps on keyboard), famous yamaha acoustic samples that are beyond Kronos in certain areas, flash ram which allows me to load anything I want (vs no flash for Kronos), karma 3 vs 2 now.
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<irony>
I'm really surprised... Why didn't somebody tell me that arpeggiator is a thing that's more relevant then Karma? Holy crap! I must have been asleep in the past six or so years using Karma on my OASYS.
</irony>
Let's go back to "normal" mode here. First you take a dump on Karma with those 4 arpeggiators which is something Karma can do (and much better, while we're at it) with its eyes closed, then you list it as a feature where XF is better then Kronos? Of course, without mentioning the fact that Kronos has Karma built-in whereas for Karma on XF you need to have a computer connected to it?
You're one funny man, really.
BTW, flash memory isn't a plus, it's a backward-way of thinking about "having samples in memory all the time". That time has really passed and streaming is a much, much better way to go. Unloading samples that you don't need is a good option definitely. There is absolutely no need to have everything in RAM all the time. Not a single top-notch sampled software instrument works in that way these days.
Now if only KORG were to allow streaming of user samples. That would pretty much bury any hope of XF being compared to the Kronos and coming out of that comparison "on dreamy top". Because then and only then would it be possible.
aquablue wrote: | It seems like it is basically all focused on piano. No wonder the guitar sounds poor compared to the XF given that the piano takes up everything. |
Really? HD-1 sounds are the only thing where XF would stand a comparison chance. And you missed the fact that AL-1 is light years ahead of anything Yamaha has and doesn't have anything comparable to it? Or STR-1. Or CX-3. And don't even get me started on XF's laughable 4-voice performance mode. That's the mother of all unflexible things on a modern-day keyboard. _________________ Check out http://it-review.net. Reviews and news - hardware, software and musical instruments.
Personally? LPI. RHCE, RHCI, RHCX, RHCVA. MCITP 2008 certification done. MCITP Virtualization Administrator done. MCITP Exchange 2010 done. MCITP MS SQL 2008 done. MCT done. MCSE Server Infrastructure 2012, MCSE: Private Cloud, MCSE:Messaging and MCSE: Desktop Infrastructure done. VCP5-DV done. VCI done. MCITP: Sharepoint 2010 Administrator done. VCP5-Cloud done. VCP5-DT done. VCAP5-DCA done. VCP6-DCV done. |
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aquablue
Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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All i want to know is this:
1) Karma is more sophisticated but it seems less easy to get what I want from it. I like to create my own complicated electronic arpeggios since I make electronic music and I need them to remain unchanged and rigid. Can I do this either with h/w or the software and have 4 complicated lines of continuous rythmic notes being played together when I am composing?
2) I need to know how many GB's of the HD are dedicated to other instruments such as orchestral and vintage synth samples so I can compare this to the Motif's sample memory.
I have little need for VA's, given that I have a Virus and the following synths: Oberheim Xpander, Oberheim 4 voice, Moog Voyager, Prophet 5.
3) I need to know how CP1/5 compares with Krono's pianos/e pianos b/c tjje wooden keyboard of the CP series pleases me more for piano than the korg keyboard.
Thank You
aq |
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Zeroesque Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 451 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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aquablue wrote: | 1) Karma is more sophisticated but it seems less easy to get what I want from it. I like to create my own complicated electronic arpeggios since I make electronic music and I need them to remain unchanged and rigid. Can I do this either with h/w or the software and have 4 complicated lines of continuous rythmic notes being played together when I am composing? | Between KARMA, RPPR, the PolySixEX's own arpeggiator (put 4 in a combi if you want) and, let's not forget, an endless loop in the sequencer, you will absolutely be able to compose in this fashion.
aquablue wrote: | 2) I need to know how many GB's of the HD are dedicated to other instruments such as orchestral and vintage synth samples so I can compare this to the Motif's sample memory. | You'll have to get that info from Korg, I think, and they probably won't commit to a number until the unit is released. We'll just have to disagree on how meaningful such a spec is, anyway. The only way you're going to know about it is to play it. For example, the orchestral sounds in the Kurzweil PC3 aren't some huge multi-gigabyte library, but they are shockingly gorgeous, and absolutely destroy any keyboard or expansion card I've played. That's the biggest part of that synth that I miss. Size != Quality. YMMV.
aquablue wrote: | I have little need for VA's, given that I have a Virus and the following synths: Oberheim Xpander, Oberheim 4 voice, Moog Voyager, Prophet 5. | Well, bonus, then. Imagine if you end up liking them. What?!
aquablue wrote: | 3) I need to know how CP1/5 compares with Krono's pianos/e pianos b/c tjje wooden keyboard of the CP series pleases me more for piano than the korg keyboard. | You seem to be asking two different things, here. Do you want to know how the RH3 keybed feels, or how the patches sound? Either way, I don't think anyone can make that determination other than you. Buy one and use the return policy if you want. _________________ Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10 |
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