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EvilDragon Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 1992 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: 9 engines, but 5 types of synthesis |
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Now, I hope this thread of mine won't raise a flame war. But let's be straight on this one: Kronos does indeed have 9 "engines", however in total it has 5 distinct synthesis types inside:
Sampler/sample mangling: HD-1, SGX-1, MDS-1, I'm including wave-sequencing here as well
FM: MOD-7
Tonewheel modeling: CX-3
Virtual analog: AL-1, MS-20EX, PolySixEX
Physical model of a string: STR-1
What do you think about this? As much as "nine" sounds big, it's really just "five" in practice. And when you think about it further, wouldn't it be really great to just use certain modules from certain "engines", like applying MS-20 filter on your modelled string or HD-1 program? Or using AL-1 filters on your MOD-7 program?
Whatever happened to granular synthesis, additive synthesis (rudiments present in CX-3, but that can't be considered additive synthesis as used in, say, Kawai K5000...), resynthesis, etc.?
Please discuss. |
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jimknopf Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well, in fact it has seven, because the mixture of modelling and sampling is not the same as sampling (the Yamaha XF for example doesn't have the former).
But anyway: why a flame war at all?
What other synthesis forms lead to results, which are so spectacular that they also should be included?
Just name another 7, (perhaps beginning with granular synthesis and it's underwhleming results?)
Last edited by jimknopf on Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:25 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 18197 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe someone at KORG can correct me if I'm wrong on these.
HD-1 High Definition Synthesizer (Pulse Code Modulation)
SGX-1 Premium Piano (Sample Modelling)
EP-1 MDS Electric Piano (E.Piano Modelling)
CX-3 Tonewheel Organ (Organ Modeling)
STR-1 Plucked String (String Modeling)
MOD-7 (FM / VPM Synthesis)
AL-1 Analog Synthesizer (Analog Modeling)
MS-20EX (CMT Analog Modeling of a specific engine)
PolysixEX (CMT Analog Modeling of a specific engine which is not the same as the one above)
So it is 9.
Regards
Sharp _________________
Last edited by Sharp on Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jimknopf Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Sharp, you are probably aware that the last three are all analog modelling, no matter aiming at which instrument(s)? |
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Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 18197 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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jimknopf wrote: | Sharp, you are probably aware that the last three are all analog modelling, no matter aiming at which instrument(s)? |
Yes, but function and sound wise they are nothing like each other. So it's a clear 9 count for sure in my book.
Regards
Sharp. |
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EvilDragon Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 1992 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm still counting sample "modeling" as sampling, since sample is at core, most likely with some kind of scripting behind it. That's not real modeling, and not a real synthesis type in my book (at least no different than actual sampling, with some frills added). Real modelled piano is Pianoteq, real modelled electric piano is GSI Mr. Ray mkII, just to name some.
3 "different" VA engines, but it's VA still. So one clear type of synthesis (virtual analog) shared between those three "engines".
Let's differentiate "engine" and "synthesis", please. |
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Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 18197 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, it's 9 synthesis types. It does not say engines on any offical documentation.
Even if Analog modelling is done 3 times, it still makes no difference. They share nothing in common. They are all completely separate types of synthesis which offer completly different functions and sound.
Just my opinion, and clearly KORG's too.
Cheers
James _________________
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EvilDragon Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 1992 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Let's agree to disagree then. :/ It's 5 clear, distinct, types of synthesis, for me, and I think you can see why I'm drawing that conclusion.
3 different VAs, it's still VA in essence, because they all share the basic subtractive synthesis principle (contrary to your statement that they share nothing in common!). Hell, even HD-1 and other sampler "engines" can go here then, which brings us to 4 clearly distinct synthesis types total:
* subtractive synthesis
* tonewheel modeling
* string modeling
* FM
And this is what ultimately matters. Now, I'm not devalueing Kronos here, it seems like a magnificent board, but I'm not that easily swayed by the "nine" hype. It's 4 in the essence of it (even correcting myself from post #1 ). |
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Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 18197 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Let's agree to disagree then. :/ |
Ok, but just so you know, I'd have a hard time going along with your count simply because as an OASYS user I know AL-1 is not even remotely close in function or sound to something like the MS-20EX.
They are worlds apart in every single way. Any OASYS user would say the same.
Forgetting HD-1 for a moment, it would be like me trying to say to you that there is only one type of synthesis because they are all just modelling technology.
Regards
Sharp. _________________
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mymusic42 Junior Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 93
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: Sampling=Modeling? |
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While I could agree that there are three types of analog modeling (albiet three distinct types), I really don't think that sampling and modeling are the same.
In the video, RichF made a point of saying that the MDS was free of all the artificial artifacts that come with sampling--so I would definitely put that in a different camp.
Based on the types of music I do, I would have preferred other types of synthesis, rather than three analog, but I look forward to sinking my teeth in and seeing what i can come up with.... |
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orpheus2006 Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 597 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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It really depends on the definition of Synthesis type.
The Kronos has 9 different Synthesis engines that use different Synthesis algorithms or Methods, but a fewer Synthesis models. _________________ www.soundcloud.com/orpheus2006
.............................................................
Korg M3-88 w/ EXB-Radias, Yamaha Motif Rack w/ PLG150-AN & PLG150-DR, Novation A-Station, RME Multiface II Audio Interface, Thinkpad T60 Notebook w/ Sonar X3 and various VSTi, Event TR8 monitors, Beyerdynamic DT-770 headphones |
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Melodialworks Music Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2003 Posts: 522
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care about how many engines, or how many types. I care about the sounds - quality, flexibility and ability to combine! There does seem to be a lot to work with, when it comes to Kronos. |
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EvilDragon Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 1992 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Lougheed wrote: | There does seem to be a lot to work with, when it comes to Kronos. |
That is definitely true - I'm not disputing that at all |
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jimknopf Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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No matter if 6, 7 (still my count!) or 9 different kinds of synthesis:
The question was: are other kinds of synthesis, and updates, needed fast?
I just don't see anything important at the horizon.
But I can learn, if someone shows me something really important... |
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X-Trade Moderator
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 6494 Location: Leeds, UK
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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I would say that AL-1 is subtractive synthesis, whilst MS-20 and PolySix are Analog Modelling.
There is a difference. AL-1 does not pretend to have anything to do with any actual analog synth. That doesn't mean that it can't posess characteristics relating to analog sounds.
Whereas MS-20 and PolySix are both Subtractive synthesizers (yes), but are modelled after specific analog counterparts. _________________ Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro |
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