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EvilDragon

Now, I hope this thread of mine won't raise a flame war. But let's be straight on this one: Kronos does indeed have 9 "engines", however in total it has 5 distinct synthesis types inside:

Sampler/sample mangling: HD-1, SGX-1, MDS-1, I'm including wave-sequencing here as well
FM: MOD-7
Tonewheel modeling: CX-3
Virtual analog: AL-1, MS-20EX, PolySixEX
Physical model of a string: STR-1

What do you think about this? As much as "nine" sounds big, it's really just "five" in practice. And when you think about it further, wouldn't it be really great to just use certain modules from certain "engines", like applying MS-20 filter on your modelled string or HD-1 program? Or using AL-1 filters on your MOD-7 program?

Whatever happened to granular synthesis, additive synthesis (rudiments present in CX-3, but that can't be considered additive synthesis as used in, say, Kawai K5000...), resynthesis, etc.?

Please discuss.

jimknopf · Platinum Member Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 3374

Well, in fact it has seven, because the mixture of modelling and sampling is not the same as sampling (the Yamaha XF for example doesn't have the former).

But anyway: why a flame war at all?

What other synthesis forms lead to results, which are so spectacular that they also should be included?

Just name another 7, (perhaps beginning with granular synthesis and it's underwhleming results?) Very Happy

Sharp · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject:

Maybe someone at KORG can correct me if I'm wrong on these.

HD-1 High Definition Synthesizer (Pulse Code Modulation)
SGX-1 Premium Piano (Sample Modelling)
EP-1 MDS Electric Piano (E.Piano Modelling)
CX-3 Tonewheel Organ (Organ Modeling)
STR-1 Plucked String (String Modeling)
MOD-7 (FM / VPM Synthesis)
AL-1 Analog Synthesizer (Analog Modeling)
MS-20EX (CMT Analog Modeling of a specific engine)
PolysixEX (CMT Analog Modeling of a specific engine which is not the same as the one above)

So it is 9.

Regards
Sharp
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jimknopf · Platinum Member Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 3374

Sharp, you are probably aware that the last three are all analog modelling, no matter aiming at which instrument(s)?

Sharp · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject:

EvilDragon · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject:

I'm still counting sample "modeling" as sampling, since sample is at core, most likely with some kind of scripting behind it. That's not real modeling, and not a real synthesis type in my book (at least no different than actual sampling, with some frills added). Real modelled piano is Pianoteq, real modelled electric piano is GSI Mr. Ray mkII, just to name some.

3 "different" VA engines, but it's VA still. So one clear type of synthesis (virtual analog) shared between those three "engines".

Let's differentiate "engine" and "synthesis", please.

Sharp · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:37 pm Post subject:

Yep, it's 9 synthesis types. It does not say engines on any offical documentation.

Even if Analog modelling is done 3 times, it still makes no difference. They share nothing in common. They are all completely separate types of synthesis which offer completly different functions and sound.

Just my opinion, and clearly KORG's too.

Cheers
James
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EvilDragon · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject:

Let's agree to disagree then. :/ It's 5 clear, distinct, types of synthesis, for me, and I think you can see why I'm drawing that conclusion.

3 different VAs, it's still VA in essence, because they all share the basic subtractive synthesis principle (contrary to your statement that they share nothing in common!). Hell, even HD-1 and other sampler "engines" can go here then, which brings us to 4 clearly distinct synthesis types total:

* subtractive synthesis
* tonewheel modeling
* string modeling
* FM

And this is what ultimately matters. Now, I'm not devalueing Kronos here, it seems like a magnificent board, but I'm not that easily swayed by the "nine" hype. It's 4 in the essence of it (even correcting myself from post #1 Razz

).

Sharp · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject:

mymusic42 · Junior Member Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 93

While I could agree that there are three types of analog modeling (albiet three distinct types), I really don't think that sampling and modeling are the same.

In the video, RichF made a point of saying that the MDS was free of all the artificial artifacts that come with sampling--so I would definitely put that in a different camp.

Based on the types of music I do, I would have preferred other types of synthesis, rather than three analog, but I look forward to sinking my teeth in and seeing what i can come up with....

orpheus2006 · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject:

It really depends on the definition of Synthesis type.
The Kronos has 9 different Synthesis engines that use different Synthesis algorithms or Methods, but a fewer Synthesis models.
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Melodialworks Music · Platinum Member Joined: 23 Feb 2003 Posts: 522

I don't care about how many engines, or how many types. I care about the sounds - quality, flexibility and ability to combine! There does seem to be a lot to work with, when it comes to Kronos.

EvilDragon · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject:

jimknopf · Platinum Member Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 3374

No matter if 6, 7 (still my count!) or 9 different kinds of synthesis:

The question was: are other kinds of synthesis, and updates, needed fast?

I just don't see anything important at the horizon.
But I can learn, if someone shows me something really important...

X-Trade · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject:

I would say that AL-1 is subtractive synthesis, whilst MS-20 and PolySix are Analog Modelling.

There is a difference. AL-1 does not pretend to have anything to do with any actual analog synth. That doesn't mean that it can't posess characteristics relating to analog sounds.
Whereas MS-20 and PolySix are both Subtractive synthesizers (yes), but are modelled after specific analog counterparts.
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