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ozy
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 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Bertotti wrote: | | I'm a bit tossed up there. I think it would be nice to have a more portable Kronos and it doesn't sacrifice any functionality to have the smaller board but I am not sure what to think of the studio logic board. I need to find one or something with similar key bed to try. Sorry to keep dragging this on everyone but it sure is helping me a lot. i hope someone else is getting some benefit out this thread as well. |
I can tell you this. In my experience
the kronos 73 and 88 keys (piano) are BETTER than the Fatars'/Studiologic weighted keys. only some stage pianos are better than then the rh3. NOT the plastic light quasi-piano-masters.
the fatar's light keys are better than the kronos' 61: slightly weighted, nice.
there's a price difference between the korg 61 and 88, but if I had to choose I'd have the BEST 88(or 73) then look for the synth-action or organ-action.
There's been a long thread recently about the keyboard/synth integration: it is more difficult on weighted keys, so having an integrated synth+weighted makes probably more sense then connecting an external 88 to a lightweigh synth.
You can survive a less-than-perfect light keyboard playing synth sounds, but a bad piano keyboard will make you HATE your piano sounds.
If you gig live and add a second manual, the kronos 73 keys is probably good for you. It weighs less, costs less, has the same keys as the 88.
at that point, there's lot of 5 octaves light keyboards you can add.
apart from the vmk161 [put your hands on it before buying. it's waterfall, but for hammond purposes the "drawbars" feel a bit cheap]
If you don't absolutely need waterfall,
you could check the Roland/Cakewalk A800 pro: aftertouch, plenty of controls. I use the little sister a300, and it's nice.
or the m-audio axiom61 (I didn't like the keys, buit that's personal feeling)
or the akai mpk 61.
If you want nice organ keys, top portability and NO NO NO NO frills (not even the drawbars  ),
this is a bit expensive but lovely:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/doepfer_d3m_orgelkeyboard_schwarz.htm |
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Synthoid
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 3300
Location: PA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ozy wrote: | Mid-rare for me!  |
With a good Belgian ale...
(If you like hard cider, you'll enjoy a Triple ale.)
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M3, Triton Classic, Radias, Motif XS, Alesis Ion |
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Bertotti
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I can't seem to find a US distributor for the DOEPFER D3M ORGELKEYBOARD SCHWARZ. And I have never seen that ale here! I don't think we get the good stuff in the states at least not in SD cowboy country! |
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Synthoid
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 3300
Location: PA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bertotti wrote: | | And I have never seen that ale here! I don't think we get the good stuff in the states at least not in SD cowboy country! |
Several stores here sell Chimay (Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland)... but I also enjoy a good domestic Triple--yeasty and semi-sweet.
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M3, Triton Classic, Radias, Motif XS, Alesis Ion |
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synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ozy wrote: | | c) the radias is WAY inferior to the kronos VA engines. You'll get tired of the radias soon. so don't build a setup on it |
This is the only thing I'd quibble with. You could say the Little Phatty is pathetic compared to the multitude of parameters available in AL-1 or even the MS-20. But if you need a Moog sound, the Phattys still give you that up front, for much less than a Voyager.
I'm keeping my Radias and using it because it does offer a few synth capabilities that nothing else does, and its filters are a little different from the AL-1 from what I've heard from OASYS owners who have both. A little brighter, but not as "glaring" as a Nord.
Still, those few things the Radias can do are a bit obscure, and would be overshadowed by something like a Prophet 08. I've heard a very few complaints about it, but I honestly can't see why anyone would quibble over having a real analog, unless you have something already.
I think Ozy's advice is about right. If you can afford the KRONOS 88, I'd get that, which I intend to do. Then add a Prophet 08 when you can afford it, and you could import the Doepfer if there just isn't a waterfall style keyboard here in the States, throw that in too.
I will have to say though that I agree completely with JPWC. With a name like mine, and a sig like mine, you would be hard pressed to find anyone bitten as hard by the synth bug as I am!
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jimknopf
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Just to put things straight:
The Moog LP gives you another nice Moog sound, but is not at all able to replace a Voyager, not even concerning sound. Both are nice in their own ways, but the LP is no Voyager at a much lower price.
I happen to play and like both, and yes, both are far from being replaceable by the Kronos VAs. They don't have to: the Kronos VAs sound great in their own way, and I would probably not keep a Radias besides them: it doesn't add enough to them for my ears. In this case I would rather add other analog synth gear like the Moogs, or an Oberheim SEM or Son-of-Four-Voice or a Juno 60 or the like, the Prophet 08 being the last on that list for my personal taste. |
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Bertotti
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Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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So many choices, so little experience, I loved the prophet, I love the idea of a master board but I think the best thing I can do is get the 88 key Kronos and a PA and start learning it. I find the more I learn of the Kronos that it could easily keep me busy for years before I have a sound idea of what I want to add as a second board. You never know maybe I'll be completely satified with it and never need another board!  I can dream right!
Dogone I hate typing on these little phones. |
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Bertotti
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Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| Here is a question that might seem odd. I am curious if a control surface could be used as additional controls for the Kronos. Nothing I am pursuing but some comments lead me to believe extra control is a good thing maybe this is an alternative for those looking for that extra control. |
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Citizen Klaus
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Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Bertotti wrote: | | Here is a question that might seem odd. I am curious if a control surface could be used as additional controls for the Kronos. Nothing I am pursuing but some comments lead me to believe extra control is a good thing maybe this is an alternative for those looking for that extra control. |
Assuming that the Kronos will function in a manner similar to the OASYS, here is what we can expect:
- Any parameter able to be modulated by AMS can be controlled by a CC from an external controller (provided that the CC# is supported by AMS).
- CCs 70-79 directly control certain parameters that are hard-wired into each synthesis engine. For example, CCs 74 and 71 control filter cutoff and resonance (respectively) across most of the engines. These are perhaps the most obvious targets for an external controller.
- Some parameters cannot (easily) be driven by an external device. The CX-3 drawbars, for example, are controlled by system exclusive (SysEx) messages, not CCs or AMS sources.
- In chord mode, the pads can be triggered by either notes or CCs. This means you can set off a pad using a footswitch, a tried-and-true OASYS/M3 technique.
Last edited by Citizen Klaus on Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jmexio
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Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:44 am Post subject: |
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I would think so, but bear in mind that it must be connected via MIDI as a direct link via USB is not possible as of this time.
Tha being said, there is a wide array of options, from more console-like to more pedal-like to a number of inbetweens. Keep in mind it must have a MIDI out and you'll be OK 
Also, checking the OASYS or M3 manuals could be a good idea, as I would think that the functionality is similar, and you can get a glimpse of what sort of parameters you'll be able to modulate and the flexibility that the system allows (spoiler: a lot) 
I have an M3 but not much experience with it, maybe someone else can comment further.
As a last idea, also notice that you already have a number of sliders and pretty buttons, joysticks, and plain pedal inputs, that you can configure and reassign to your liking in many cases, so it's not like you have a shortage of control out of the box... I know you probably know that, but just for the sake of completion.
Cheers,
Juan Miguel
EDIT: What Klaus said |
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Melodialworks Music
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Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 522
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Citizen Klaus wrote: |
Assuming that the Kronos will function in a manner similar to the OASYS, here is what we can expect:
Any parameter able to be modulated by AMS can be controlled by a CC from an external controller (provided that the CC# is supported by AMS). |
What is AMS? |
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Citizen Klaus
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Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Lougheed wrote: | | Citizen Klaus wrote: |
Assuming that the Kronos will function in a manner similar to the OASYS, here is what we can expect:
Any parameter able to be modulated by AMS can be controlled by a CC from an external controller (provided that the CC# is supported by AMS). |
What is AMS? |
Alternate Modulation Sources.
From the OASYS Parameter Guide (p. 1019):
| Quote: | Alternate Modulation lets you use controllers, envelopes, LFOs, etc. to modulate Program parameters. They’re called “Alternate Modulation” because they are in addition to the many dedicated modulation routings, such as Filter EG to Filter Cutoff, or LFO to Pitch.
You can use one controller to modulate multiple parameters simultaneously. You can also create complex modulation setups in which (for example) an envelope modulates the frequency of an LFO, and that LFO is then used to modulate a filter.
... [T]he parameters you can control via alternate modulation will depend on the program type (HD-1, AL-1, CX-3 etc.). For each of these destination parameters, you can select an AMS (Alternate Modulation Source) to modulate it. |
So basically, AMS is a more advanced version of the "modulation matrixes" found in other synths. But what really makes AMS special is the AMS mixer. Again, from the OASYS Parameter Guide, same page:
| Quote: | The AMS Mixers combine two AMS sources into one, or process an AMS source to make it into something new.
For instance, they can add two AMS sources together, or use one AMS source to scale the amount of another. You can also use them to change the shapes of LFOs and EGs in various ways, modify the response of realtime controllers, and more.
The AMS Mixer outputs appear in the list of AMS sources, just like the LFOs and EGs.
The original, unmodified inputs to the AMS Mixers are still available as well. For instance, if you use LFO 1 as an input to a AMS Mixer, you can use the processed version of the LFO to control one AMS destination, and the original version to control another.
Finally, you can cascade two or more AMS Mixers together, by one as an input to another. |
The AMS mixer provides an open architecture for programming modulation and controller response, allowing the OASYS, M3, and M50 to both reproduce fancy dedicated control schemes in other workstations, and to create brand new ones. For example, Roland makes a big deal about the Fantom G's guitar mode, which allows the pitch bender to operate only on the most recently-played note, ignoring currently-sustained chords.
AMS allows the OASYS/M3/M50 to do exactly the same thing, plus other useful effects, like quantized pitch bending (to simulate, among other things, neck slides on fretted instruments). The parameter guides of the OASYS and M3 contain several useful examples of things you can do with the AMS mixer; it's an immensely powerful system. |
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Bertotti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Son of a gun, one seemingly simple little question, at least to me, just gave me another months worth of research. I have no clue what half of what you guys typed means but thats good, I'll look it all up and learn!
I don't know why I asked, I was just looking around and saw the control surfaces for daws and remembered a comment about you can always use extra controls. Seemed like a reasonable thought but looks as if it is much more complicated then I thought. I wonder if a control surface made for a workstation would sell well? Lots of extra sliders, drawbars, buttons, pads, knobs just a thought. |
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Jon Lord
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 452
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for offtopic
| Citizen Klaus wrote: | The AMS mixer provides an open architecture for programming modulation and controller response, allowing the OASYS, M3, and M50 to both reproduce fancy dedicated control schemes in other workstations, and to create brand new ones. For example, Roland makes a big deal about the Fantom G's guitar mode, which allows the pitch bender to operate only on the most recently-played note, ignoring currently-sustained chords.
AMS allows the OASYS/M3/M50 to do exactly the same thing, plus other useful effects, like quantized pitch bending (to simulate, among other things, neck slides on fretted instruments). The parameter guides of the OASYS and M3 contain several useful examples of things you can do with the AMS mixer; it's an immensely powerful system. |
Could you push me to the right direction about how to do this "guitar mode" the ams mixers on the M3. Remember JR talking about this on his Kurzweil on some old video and never thought it was possible with my M3
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Last edited by Jon Lord on Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bertotti
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Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon threads take on a life of their own and in the end there are always others who get some benifit from it. Cool question. |
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