Korg Forums

[rrricky rrrecordo]

I'd like to hear that.

What I have heard so far is a few layers of sampled snapshots and a filter that opens when the virtual lid pops up.

Not so much nuance though. Well, very little nuance really, just some decent long samples over and over... to my ears.

Best Korg acoustic piano to date??

The demos wear on me already - (thru Mackie HR824 Mk 2s at this point, not my kid's skullcandies iphone setup as last time)

ozy was right about missing a trick with modeling, soundsnaps may not be the way of the future
.
Btw, same for the Kronos epianos in my opinion... they crank (in layers) but don't sound to me as though they're being fondled like a real Fender can and should be.

Haven't heard the Kronos Wurlies, but admittedly it's difficult to render a decent Wurlie "replication" in software it seems without a kinda rubber twang being output. (Internet lore has it that certain older Korg synths used a clarinet waveform for their Wurlie patches in an effort to bounce the rubberized bit out).

As for the soundboard and cabinet resonances - about time.

[GregC]

[rrricky rrrecordo]

GregC said:

"I am hearing excellent acoustic pianos".



Me too. Closing on two more vintage Heintzman grands March 15.

So you're hearing ppp?

You will here: http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_by_instrument

These Pianoteq demos exhibit way more dynamic range than I can hear in the Kronos demos.

Enjoy your Kronos

[rrricky rrrecordo]

Oh ya, way more piano models to choose from in Pianoteq as well, and you can build your own

Just got emailed on the Heintzmans - I lost them to a higher bidder Ah well...

[MartinHines]

I could probably find different components of software that might sound better than the Kronos, but the questions are:
1) How much better?
2) In a single integrated unit?

Given the demos I have heard so far, the Kronos sounds good. Can a person find a software based piano that sounds better than the Kronos piano?

Yes. I suspect Ivory II or EWQL pianos might sound better, but how much better?

I am also sure that EWQL Symphonic Orchestra or VSL Orchestra will sound better than the Kronos orchestral patches.

The above will probably be true for any acoustic instruments on the Kronos.

The real question is whether the Kronos sounds good enough to do accomplish what you want with them, and at least for me, I suspect the answer will be 'yes'.

[mkpcola]

Alright... more comparisons...
You guys should really watch Jordan Russ demo. One important thing he said is 'the nature of hardware instrument'. For that reason, I bought Kronos(not delivered yet!).
I have tons of super dupa mega giga tetra sound libraries. Believe it or not, none are as good as advertised or being praised.
Regardless of computer upgrades, latency and disk streaming are still problem now and then. I have to turn on computer and a bunch of electronics and wait for program and a sound patch to load. .hard to load more than one big library, almost impossible "combi" mode, and list is on.....they are more suited for recording sessions rather then live playing.
Remember Kronos and other synth workstations are Live performance (with a band, on TV, in a room, in a hall ..does not matter)orientated..
You simplay can not compare apples to oranges...
But never compare to REAL instruments... it is just senseless....

[jmexio]

Hi rrricky!

Just wanted to point out that some of what you hear (or don't hear) on the demos might also be due to playing technique and musical choice. I personally don't think evaluating a piano on how it sounds is so important, it's much more about how it responds to you (or me, actually ).

Anyway, I'd also like to leave a link to this post I just made about some parameters of the piano engine in the (older & longer) velocity thread.

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=377596#377596

Cheers,
Juan Miguel

[Lando]

Agree with jmexio here, impossible to tell for sure from the demos, but to me it sounds like the most natural and expressive hardware piano yet. We'll see about that I guess.

Taste is different aswell, for me Pianoteq is unplayable and has a horrific feeling to it, so for studio work I still use my Ivory or a real grand when possible.

[EvilDragon]

[ozy]

I don't want to rant and rave, and I am not deep into acoustic piano,

but gotta tell you something:

I tested the K's electric pianos, and what I liked in them CAN'T EVEN REMOTELY BE DETECTED in Tube demos.

There's noises [the good ones: pedal, tines, key release, etc] which you absolutely don't hear on tube demos. and they are all important in making a good sound

I spent maybe 3 minutes on the grand pianos, but if it's half as good as the rhodes and wurlies, with string resonances, pedal and jey noises, you won't know it from the tube.

Can't wait for a second test.

OR: if just Korg could find a way of releasing better audio tests.

some basic Hanon in wav format would be far better for many players to understand the machine's quality,

rather than the usual rachmaninoff-thru-sony-camera-microphone which you hear in the demos

[rrricky rrrecordo]

[Lando]

[EvilDragon]

There you go. I love Bösendorfers much more than Steinways, and Kawais over Yamahas anytime.

[Lando]

Ok, an hour of Pianoteq testing again, and I am 100% sure that from my perspective and my ears, acoustic piano modeling is not even close to it's sample based competitors, and obviously not it's acoustic role models.

What to my ears sound bad:
-Extreme dynamics sounds very unnatural
-Top and bottom register sounds very unnatural, mid-range is better.
-Overall plonkyness on all sounds (at least those who were in the demo)

Noone would be happier than me if I found it up to par, but no, not yet, for me at least.

[EvilDragon]

Dynamics are exceptional and in no way unnatural - no velocity layers, no crossfading. Seems like your controller is too sensitive, you need to adjust velocity curve both on your controller and inside Pianoteq. I don't have any problems with dynamics being too extreme. And then again, you have "Dynamics" slider so you can decrease it for yourself. Piano can be a very dynamic instrument - with differences between ppp and fff going up and above 40 dB. Preset surfing won't get you anywhere.

Actually midrange has more problems than bottom and especially top registers - top register is absolutely sublime, no exception, and no competition. Bass is extremely concrete, especially with K1 model, rumbles as good and as thunderous as my piano downstairs.

Subjective wordings like "plonkyness" cannot be evaluated correctly. I don't hear any "plonkyness".

Also - remember that there's parameters to tweak. Changes can be very drastic, and one of the most important is microphone positioning. It can change a LOT in the sound. That's something you don't get with samples - definitely not with this amount of flexibility.

An hour? Come on, give it a week, play around with it, tweak it, see what you come up with. As said above, preset surfing won't get you anywhere.

Where sampling fails - velocity layers (crossfading is not helping). No propertly calculated sympathetic and pedal resonances in realtime. Unrealistic pedalling behavior, especially when una corda is concerned (una corda is not just a lowpass filter!). Samples don't account for note repetitions correctly (when an already vibrating string is struck it produces a different sound than when it's excited from stillness). General disconnection between the player and sampled snapshot of a key being struck - it's not the same as playing a real instrument, samples don't "breathe", don't evolve and decay as gracefully as Pianoteq does, they are generally very stiff and lifeless sounding. Etc., etc., etc.