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ozy
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 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: |
I suppose you don't need an audio interface ?
And where is the " Combi creator " in your software list ?
would you be happy with a cheap midi controller ?
is Logic free ? ( pick your DAW, etc)
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plus
88 keys weighted with aftertouch
touch screen
ssd
and the main factor: booting time
[calculate as follows = hourly wage, let's say 15 euros. price per minute 25 cents. booting time for a kronos, let's say 2 minutes, booting time for a computer, let's say 5 minutes, not mentionig upgrades, antivirus, etc. Reboots per day = 2 (lunch and dinner), plus 4 reboots a day on gig day (open, soundcheck, close, open, gig, close), 8 gigs a month, makes for an average of let's say 16 reboots a week, 64 reboots a month, 768 reboots a year.
then
[5-2] * 768 * 0.25 = 576,00 euro per year cost of rebooting
average life of a workstation = 3 years
576 * 3 = 1728 euros
1728 eur (2420 us$) is the sheer man-hour cost of using a computer instead of dedicated hardware.
| rrricky rrrecordo wrote: | the less scrupulous can do much better on the entry price  |
well, they can always steal a Kronos or rob a bank, won't they?  |
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Akos Janca
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1158
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ozy wrote: | ...
and the main factor: booting time
[calculate as follows = ... |
Twisted logic but good!  Thank you.
To answer RR's original question: probably not but it also depends on how you specify the terms "ppp" and "convincing". And what you play: one note? one chord? a single tune? a piece?
RR, if you want real ppp on a (real) piano then you need a REAL piano - not surprising. No software can help that. What's your aim?
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Last edited by Akos Janca on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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I have been trying the notebook/software alternative one whole year.
Looking back, I regard something like the Kronos as vastly superior.
- you will not completely avoid some stability issues which you NEVER exclude completely on any computer OS made for general computer use. Rebooting a fat sampler like Kontakt, with big libraries, is a nightmare in live use, and having to reboot your whole OS before (happens rarely, but occurs) even more.
- you will not face a unified UI, instead struggle with all kinds of different UIs within your DAW
- you will meet heavy disk streaming problems, as soon as you try to run several big disk streaming Kontakt libraries at the same time: resource hunger generally is a big problem in unbalanced, overused software systems, where a user (wrongly) thinks he/she can just put "the best of the best" all into one software pot and get by without problems: utter nonsense! Everybody can try for him-/herself and fail gloriously.
I would anytime prefer a unified and well balanced hardware/software sytem like the Kronos over all software-alternatives running on notebooks or Receptor/Neko-like systems.
Maybe this will change in the future, but we've certainly not yet reached this point right now.
So for now I don't care a bit about software like Pianoteq, and I would even question the view that Pianoteq is the better EP alternative compared to the Kronos EPs! We will be able to compare 1:1 in two or three months and should just bury a very questionable hardware/software comparison so far! |
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ozy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Akos Janca wrote: | | ozy wrote: | ...
and the main factor: booting time
[calculate as follows = ... |
Twisted logic but good! Thank you. |
You spotted the flaw, huh? Smart guy! The Economist, you!
This is why you smelled the fish: I lied.
I didn't really calculate the booting time cost like I said.
Indeed, the real logic of my calculation was the following:
price of human liver: 10.000 euros per kilo
loss of liver tissue for each delayed reboot: 0.5 grams
the calculation remains the same.
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Akos Janca
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1158
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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ozy
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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buona domenica paisŕ!
first week-end on the grass field, btw...
Winter is so over!  |
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mrk
Junior Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ozy wrote: | | and the main factor: booting time |
As a descent PC takes less than 30sec to boot (my 4yrs old laptop needs around 15sec - not to mention the less than 2sec to wake up from suspend-to-ram) I guess this round would go to the PC
mmh.. maybe I should forget about a Kronos and get some sofware?... ^^ |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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If you have everything on SSD, boot times get significantly lower. If you have optimized OS without networking and junk, things get even faster.
Streaming from SSDs is much smoother than from regular hard drives, the seek time is much shorter. Having one small SSD for OS and one for sample libraries makes a lot of sense. Although, SSDs aren't yet CHEAP enough.
As for a DAW, Reaper fits the bill nicely |
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burningbusch
Approved Merchant
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1203
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mrk wrote: | | ozy wrote: | | and the main factor: booting time |
As a descent PC takes less than 30sec to boot (my 4yrs old laptop needs around 15sec - not to mention the less than 2sec to wake up from suspend-to-ram) I guess this round would go to the PC
mmh.. maybe I should forget about a Kronos and get some sofware?... ^^ |
You forgot the time it takes to load the DAW or whatever you're going to use to make music, pre-load the sample data and all plugins.
Busch. |
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Akos Janca wrote: | | RR, if you want real ppp on a (real) piano then you need a REAL piano - not surprising. No software can help that. What's your aim? |
Well Akos, actually Pianoteq helps a lot (I know, here he goes again!)
Some background:
I make my living primarily by teaching piano performance to children and teenagers, and by providing music therapy for individuals with special needs. A large number of these special individuals are autistic adults (and quite amazing in their musical capabilities).
I have been teaching for over thirty years, and took up music therapy about ten years ago. My teaching is done on-site at my main downtown studio (as downtown as it gets in a small town north of Toronto) and in my home studio. Most of the therapy work I do is conducted in the downtown location. However, some clients have mobility issues, so to assist these people I travel either to their homes or to service providers and agencies within the community.
To pass time enjoyably when I’m not working, I do solo piano gigs with a Tom Waits slant, and play piano in a roots rock group. Although I majored in piano performance in university, I’m no concert pianist. Still, I am a pianist, and I need a stable of good pianos - real and next-best-thing - for the work I do.
For teaching, I work with a 6’ Petrof grand, a Samick studio upright and Pianoteq. The real pianos are the workhorses, but I find that Pianoteq is a very useful tool for helping students listen to, analyze and improve their performances. In my opinion, Pianoteq comes as close as it is currently possible to capturing and reproducing the subtle physical gestures we humans output when we sit down at our instruments and express ourselves.
Using Logic as a host, I will frequently record student lessons using Pianoteq. At points along the way, we can stop and check aspects of the student’s performance, from gross motor issues such as timing right down to the subtlest nuances of dynamics and tone. Logic’s notation output lays the mechanics of the performance straight out in black and white, while Pianoteq captures (and reproduces) the tone and dynamics of the performance in brilliant colour, thanks to an amazing series of calculations performed in real time that result in a brilliant range of silky smooth, dynamic amplitude and frequency range transitions that Ivory and similar sample-based piano emulations simply cannot match.
I could go on. But anyway, when the day's "work" is done, and I'm jammin' into the wee hours juzt 'cuz, it's me and my guitars and Pianoteq K1 or Pleyel because they get what I'm sayin' and retell it like it is.
So to answer you question about my aim: I aim to keep doing what I’m doing with the best tools I can find for the job |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| rrricky rrrecordo wrote: | | GregC wrote: |
do us a favor. List all software instruments ( that are similar to the Kronos
components, categories, etc) and give their prices.
Lets see that software instrument total. |
OK!
NI Komplete 7 - 499 USD...
...or we can cherrypick:
SGX-1 Premium Piano - surpassed by far by Pianoteq 3 - 349 euros
EP-1 MDS Electric Piano - at least equalled by Pianoteq 3 - 89 euros (and includes the Clavinet and wicked good "Rock Piano" add-ons as well)
CX-3 Tonewheel Organ - the original NI B4II has the real deal sound and feel, way better than the standalone CX-3 I used to own (can't remember the price though - 99 USD I think)
HD-1 High Definition Synthesizer - blown sky high out of the water by Omnisphere -469 USD
AL-1 Analog Synthesizer - Omnisphere again
MS-20EX Legacy Analog Collection - maybe 25 bucks on iPad now but I got in early for 14.99... and it's covered in the original Korg Legacy Collection, around 200 street as I recall
PolySix Legacy Analog Collection - again, original Legacy Collection (may we include this in the above price?)
STR-1 Plucked String Synthesizer - AAS Modeling Collection (much more than strings... Tassman 4, Ultra Analog VA-1, Lounge Lizard EP3, String Studio VS-1, Strum Acoustic GS-1, Strum Electric GS-1) - 399 CAD street
MOD-7 Waveshaping VPM Synthesizer - NI FM8, 99 USD back in the day, but now available in Komplete 7
You can toss in MacBook Pro and a decent controller and still come in under the 61's projected price, and have way more flexibility
I buy all the software i use, but the less scrupulous can do much better on the entry price |
I suppose you don't need an audio interface ?
And where is the " Combi creator " in your software list ?
would you be happy with a cheap midi controller ?
is Logic free ? ( pick your DAW, etc)
=============================
Ricky
I notice you didn't follow thru on your ' assertion '
And you didn't respond to what Akos (page 2 , bottom) said about
your ' assertion '
Run Ricky, Run !
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | Ricky
I notice you didn't follow thru on your ' assertion '
And you didn't respond to what Akos (page 2 , bottom) said about
your ' assertion '
Run Ricky, Run ! |
Who's running? Not everyone has the time to scrutinize every post on this forum, or to be here to respond to others' posts in what you may consider to be a timely manner. When I do read forum posts, I generally click on the last page first, and then shuffle back and forth - surely it's conceivable to you that some posts can be missed.
Forgive me for not responding on demand.
As I mentioned earlier, I buy all the software that I use, but the sad reality is that many people don't. I don't condone software piracy in any way, but it's a fact that can't be ignored. Akos is correct that this point should not be used in any "argument"; I did not intend to use it as a point but more as an observation. Fail on my part, and I apologize for it.
Anyway, since you mention Logic, Greg, no - it's not free, but Logic alone on a Macbook easily outguns Kronos on many useful musical levels.
As I noted in another thread, many of us already have the infrastructure in place to run and play great software instruments from the past, the present and that yet to be released.
Yes, I need an audio interface - I have that covered with a Yamaha N12, a Lexicon I-ONIX U22 and an Edirol UA-101.
I have a stable of decent controllers that each have their strengths (and weaknesses) depending on the job. My Motif XS is wonderful for working in Logic, my Roland RD-250s has a great piano action for playing the Pianoteq instruments and my Yamaha P200 comes in a close second. My Kawai K5000S has the nicest synth action I've ever used... only my DX7 comes close in this regard. So, I have the controller bit covered as well.
If I didn't have the infrastructure in place, then Kronos might have been a viable option for me along with the MacBook/software approach. However, from my own personal point of view and circumstances, Kronos is redundant and of little benefit to me.
As a jack-of-all-trades workstation though, Kronos looks to be the one to beat - for now. |
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Bertotti
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
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rrricky rrrecordo I think you nailed it. Kronos won't be for everyone and not everyone will agree on tone. I will buy it as soon as I can because i have no keyboard/workstation infrastructure other then a cheap PSR275 in the house I have nothing. do however have logic express on my macbook pro. And I won't knock gargeband either it is a great app included with a mac purchase very capable. For me the Kronos is the perfect first high quality keyboard I will ever have and a good chance it will be the last. I will add having sat and listened to every single Kronos vid I could find I find nothing lacking for my needs. I don't know about the rest of you but I am going to have a ball figuring this bit of tech out!  |
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Lando
Full Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I was about to leave this thread, but seriously Rricky, you are trolling like crazy here! You post in all kinds of threads in a Korg Kronos forum how much better it is with software solutions and while you may have a point I don't think it adds anything to the Kronos discussions or forums.
I have been working for the last two years with a Mac based soundbank, and while it have worked great most of the time it is not easy comparable with a dedicated workstation for live usage, they both have their uses.
Your list is also very wierd, Omnisphere vs HD-1, do you even know what HD-1 is?? While I love Omnisphere and use it almost on a daily base it is definitly not bread and butter in the way HD-1 is. For pads and some leads as well as some other sounds it is awesome, but that is it's main usage.
Pianoteq...well we have discussed that before and I disagree on the pianos, and I doubt noone in their right mind would say that it at least outclasses the Kronos pianos (who sounds amazing) but seriously, the EPs in there beeing better than Kronos EP1?? They sound so incredibly artificial, not even remotely like real Rhodes, even the built in modelled EPs in Logic are closer to the real thing (Mark one model actually kinda ok in there).
Also, when playing live, latency is an issue, and I haven't been able to get as low latency out of the system as I want with a 2*2,26 ghz Mac book pro and a Motu ultralite MKIII. Not saying it is impossible, specially with a stationary Mac Pro, or maybe a pro tools system, but there goes the whole live thing down the drain.
Another issue is stability, cause non dedicated computer systems do hang and crash more regulary than dedicated systems. Last summer I did live TV in Sweden every week with my rig, and it was a constant stress factor, and one of the reasons I will go for the Kronos. Sound wise I was in awesome shape: Omnisphere for pads, string orchestra and some leads. VSL for lead strings and orchestra sounds, Albino 3 and ESX24 and synths for synth sounds. Ivory for piano. I had it completely covered but: 1. It was not 100% stable, thank god it didn't crash during broadcast and 2: Latency was a teeny weeny to big to be able to play rythmic synths with ease and generally get the right feeling from the piano.
Anyway, long post but my main point is this:
Why spam all threads with how much better a theorethical software system with your beloved Pianoteq would be, is there any point at all with it, cause it sure escapes me?
EDIT: the setup I'm using now is also moe expensive than Kronos 88 will be. There is abviously cheaper solutions, but with quality hardware I really doubt it will be cheaper than Kronos 88...but even comparing is quite silly. |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Lando wrote: | | and I doubt noone in their right mind would say that it at least outclasses the Kronos pianos (who sounds amazing) |
I would. But that's just because I know what's coming up from Modartt. |
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