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? for Ozy.
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drama1
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: ? for Ozy. Reply with quote

Hey Ozy. Since you've actually had your hands on the Kronos and you currently own a Kurz PC3, I'm really curious about your thoughts and opinions between the two boards, expecially since Kurz released the latest OS update with the new sounds and leslie FX. I'm really leaning towards the PC3 for a number of reasons: PC3 takes up waay less realestate on stage, much lighter & cheaper , has VA, KB3, much better orch/strings, has seamless switching, QA, and 76 key semi-weighted. The only real advantage I see, for my purposes, is the great piano sound of the Kronos. I'm a little tired of the Kurz tripe strike piano sound. Why anyone needs three seperate VA's in one board is beyond me. From what I've heard of the CX-3 I'm not really that impressed and believe KB3 is more than capable of the same. If you could only have one or the other for live purposes only, which would you choose?
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ozy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: ? for Ozy. Reply with quote

drama1 wrote:
If you could only have one or the other for live purposes only, which would you choose?


quick answer: I think there's a big misunderstanding.

the pc3 is a stage keyboard, the kronos is a DAW.

pc3 doesn't record, it doesn't burn CDs, it doesn't sample, it doesn't vocode, it doesn't auto-sample, it doesn't record to hd.

kronos does, but makes no effort at making live performance easy.

It's not the same animal.

they are not interchangeable imho


long answer: tough question, and I am still thinking about it.

problem is, the question as you posed it [kronos as my do-it-all keyboard, VA KB3 etc etc] doesn't make sense for me - because of my two pet peeves: real analogue and physically modeled brass&winds.

I HATE sampled brasses, and don't think VAs can match real analogues. Useless to discuss with me about that. Rolling Eyes

So, I don't use the pc3's analogue emulation either.

Since I must/want carry a rack for real analogue and brass/winds anyway,

and I need a serious master keyboard,

I am afraid I esitate at choosing the Kronos at 2.5 times the price of the pc3 when I'd use just two or three out of 9 engines.

Especially since the Kronos' masterkeyboard and live functionalities don't match the pc3's (16 zones with separate curves, offsets, better aftertouch, more real time control on zones, breath control, substantial ribbon)

+ internal sounds changeable on the fly with effects tracking the changes immediately

If you do live, that may matter to you.

Finally: there's not a 1/2.5 gap as far as sound is concerned [kronos' rhodes are good, but they are 25% better than pc3's, not 2 and 1/2 times better. Again, if I needed VAs or guitars the gap would probably widen, but based on the sounds I use the gap is about 25%].


So my current answer, pending further testing is:

I'd choose the pc3, but NOT because it's a better all-in-one solution.

I think the Kronos is a better all-in-one solution.

I don't like all-in-one solutions, that's all.

The pc3 is a better masterkeyboard, a better live controller, is better suited for quick live program change [see note below],

allows me to use very well the better synths I won and which the kronos won't replace,

costs about half

Confused Question






[footnote]
I am considering buying the Kronos 61 and keeping the pc3.

I'd use the kronos as a secondary masterkeyboard for the real analogues [i currently use a doepfer master for that], put it in local mode,

use it a a "sound module" for EPs and the occasional ethnic string or sample or whatever čplayed by the kronos keyboard itself, through a patchbay return, on a different channel than the pianos]

Let's forget for a moment the cost of replacing a 350 eur masterkeyboard with a 3000 eur daw, just for the sake of the EP engine. Ouch!, but let's forget it. Suppose 3000 don't matter at all.

I stopped at the following point (pending further investigation):

I'll need to create some combis responding to the pc3 on channel 1 and to "local return" on channel 2.

Well... it doesn't fly, for the following reason.

The Kronos shares the same ugly "effect separated from programs" combi architecture as the oasys and the m3.

Which means:

I am playing a phased rhodes on my kronos using the pc3 as a controller, and I am soloing on the kronos with a strange ethnic string patch ["Badia" anyone?]. The string patch needs just a bit of EQ, a compressor and... an exciter.

Suddendly the band goes into nasty mode, I want the rhodes to go whawha+distortion, and keep the same ethnic string patch.

Well, on Kronos I gotta think about it the morning before the gig.

I can' just change the rhodes program to, say "My whawha flat-top #2". The effects woudln't be there.

I need to switch to a whole combi including both the new rhodes and the old string patch.

I need then a whole combi for every possible combination of, let's say, 10 possible rhodes settings (I use that many) and... let's say 15 or 20 kronos solo patches.

That makes 150/200 combis I'd need to memorize.

And at this point I have been using TWO engines.

What about a vocoder? What about having three possibile vocoder presets on a third channel?

That makes for... er... 450/600 combis ready.

I was thinking about it last night while rehearsing.

That cooled my "kronos as an expander" strategy.

I like the firggin' rhodes of the kronos,

but can't find a way of adding it to the setup.

[before some wise guy steps in, here's how I do with the pc3:

on zone 1 I have the rhodes, one of them. zome 2 controls say the vl1, zone 3 another vl70, zone 4 the prohet, zone 5 a m1, etc.

Each zone has program change.

I change the program on external modules, they change with effects, where efefcts are needed.

I want another rhodes? I just change program on zone 1, and it shifts, taking effects with it. So I can move from a couple of sounds with a totally different couple in a couple of seconds without much hassle].


Sorry I must have confused you instead of helping.


Last edited by ozy on Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ozy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margin note on my footnote

the "combi effects" issue, as well as other shortcomings of the "m3/oasys" architecture for live usage,

have been discussed here for years.

How the heck could K invest money and time on the "perfect synth", and not give a damn about improving the LIVE performance features,

beats me.

I hadn't carefully thought about it when I first reviewed the Kronos,

but yesterday I was really frustrated when I thought that I had found a way of spending those friggin' 3 grands,

and realized they had found a way of deterring me Confused

won't give up Wink , I have holes in my pockets, but is this the business of a buyer? Overcoming the seller's strenuous defenses? Shocked
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jemkeys25
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Joined: 15 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll solve your problem,

get a PC3K7 and a kronos 61,

problem solved.
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BillW
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: ? for Ozy. Reply with quote

ozy wrote:
drama1 wrote:
If you could only have one or the other for live purposes only, which would you choose?


quick answer: I think there's a big misunderstanding.

the pc3 is a stage keyboard, the kronos is a DAW.



This is really misleading. The Kronos is just as much a stage keyboard as the PC3...better in fact because of ability to mix & match combis and patches in set lists and do smooth transitions (not to mention the amount of sonic power it offers with all of those synth engines). Having owned a PC3 for more than a year, I know it cannot do seamless sound transitions consistently across all modes. The Kronos is not a DAW, it's a keyboard workstation. In fact, it's primarily a synth that has a built-in sequencer that can also record audio. A DAW is a device primarily designed for recording and editing audio.

Drama1 -- your other "impressions" of the Korg sounds really aren't accurate. The CX3 is one of the finest Hammond emulations in existence -- the demos you've heard don't show it in its best light. KB3 mode on the PC3 doesn't sound like a Hammond and the Leslie effect is not accurate. You'll end up much happier if you define your needs, do some research and listen these boards for yourself.
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: ? for Ozy. Reply with quote

BillW wrote:
KB3 mode on the PC3 doesn't sound like a Hammond


Untrue. The raw tonewheel sound is really great on Kurzweil. Leslie is much better on OS 2.0 - and I'd still use Ventilator with any Hammond sim because it saves on internal FX processing power.


Scratch all that, GSi VB3 hosted in V-Machine kills all these Hammond emulations.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: ? for Ozy. Reply with quote

ozy wrote:
The Kronos shares the same ugly "effect separated from programs" combi architecture as the oasys and the m3.

Which means:

I am playing a phased rhodes on my kronos using the pc3 as a controller, and I am soloing on the kronos with a strange ethnic string patch ["Badia" anyone?]. The string patch needs just a bit of EQ, a compressor and... an exciter.

Suddendly the band goes into nasty mode, I want the rhodes to go whawha+distortion, and keep the same ethnic string patch.

Well, on Kronos I gotta think about it the morning before the gig.

I can' just change the rhodes program to, say "My whawha flat-top #2". The effects woudln't be there.

I need to switch to a whole combi including both the new rhodes and the old string patch.


The EP-1 has built-in effects, including a couple of different Vox wah pedals. These are automatically loaded along with the Program, regardless of whether you're in Program or Combi modes. They also don't take up IFX resources, so you still have 12 IFX in addition to the built-in effects. Finally, they can be controlled from front-panel knobs, sliders, and switches using Tone Adjust.

CX-3 and PolysixEX also have similar built-in effects.

Also, if you need a few variations of effects settings in a single Combi (or Program), that's easy to set up, too. Effects parameters, including wet/dry mix, can be assigned to front-panel buttons and knobs. This lets you have wah or distortion, for instance, on front-panel controls ready to kick in whenever you want.

Best regards,

Dan
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BillW
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: ? for Ozy. Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
BillW wrote:
KB3 mode on the PC3 doesn't sound like a Hammond


Untrue. The raw tonewheel sound is really great on Kurzweil. Leslie is much better on OS 2.0 - and I'd still use Ventilator with any Hammond sim because it saves on internal FX processing power.


Scratch all that, GSi VB3 hosted in V-Machine kills all these Hammond emulations.


We can agree to disagree on the PC3, but I'm with you on VB3! Laughing
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It needs to be pointed out that the comparisons of the Kronos and PC3 by drama1 and Ozy here are quite misleading and adhoc. The comparisons made do not reflect real differences existing between the two.


I also think the comparisons of the two Virtual Organ emulations need serious qualification. Both are surely excellent and any comparisons can surely only be splitting hairs? They are probably both equally capable under the correct hands. I saw Herbie Hancock live in Dublin last October where he played the CX3 on the OASYS and by God was it stunning. It made me realise that when played _properly_ it's bloody stunning. Herbie Hancock did not look unhappy with it - he was thoroughly loving it - and that's good enough for me (and by the way - he used STR-1 clavs too and equally didn't split hairs here - he just played and they sounded like clavs).

To offer my own adhoc opinion, I feel it is important to note that the Kronos entire design is truly 21st century while the PC3 is 1990s derived, and IMO they cannot be compared in earnest. That said, personal choice is of course king and many will go for a PC3 despited it's serious dated-ness hangovers.

Kevin.
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drama1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, now I'm even more confused. Thanks to all for the responses. I thought version 2.0 eliminated the smooth transition issues with the Kurz. They're both killer boards, no doubt, but I got some real comparing to do which to choose, how much to spend. Already have a loaded M3-73, so I have most of the Korg sounds covered EXCEPT for that wonderful Kronos piano. Crap. I'm going to wind up getting both. Wife's gonna kill me.
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drama1 wrote:
I thought version 2.0 eliminated the smooth transition issues with the Kurz.


There's NOTHING in the v2.0 release notes that says this. Here's the situation with Kurzweil:

1. If the FX chains in programs/setups between which you change don't add up to more than 16 FX units, the patch change will be seamless.

2. In case that FX units use the same FX blocks (basic building blocks of FX chains), the patch change will be seamless.

3. Switching to KB3 mode will always produce a tiny gap in case you don't have enough remaining FX resources to account for Leslie FX.

4. Switching to KB3 mode from a monophonic program will not happen until you let go of the last held monophonic note.

5. Switching from KB3 mode back to normal mode will always cut KB3 notes.


Last edited by EvilDragon on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jemkeys25
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so am I, and i'm not going to tell my wife, she knows i play and doesn't know a kronos from a kurzweil from a yamaha.
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cello
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jemkeys25 wrote:
so am I, and i'm not going to tell my wife, she knows i play and doesn't know a kronos from a kurzweil from a yamaha.


Lol! - Careful though - I bet she knows how to use google... Wink (mine does Embarassed )
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drama1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
drama1 wrote:
I thought version 2.0 eliminated the smooth transition issues with the Kurz.


There's NOTHING in the v2.0 release notes that says this.


I thought I read it on the sonik****** forum. So I take it there are issues with the smooth sound transmission on the Kurz? For me personally, this is a must-have feature for live performance.
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're not "issues". It's the nature of the beast. If you follow the guidelines (check my previous post), you get smooth transitions. There are reasons why it's behaving like that on PC3. Remember, PC3 wasn't even meant to be as powerful as it is right now.

I think that the next K-series workstation will have everything seamless, no matter the situation. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Kurzweil wouldn't let it out in the wild without providing such feature. Let's see what happens.


Last edited by EvilDragon on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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