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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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 Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| drama1 wrote: | | EvilDragon wrote: | | drama1 wrote: | | I thought version 2.0 eliminated the smooth transition issues with the Kurz. |
There's NOTHING in the v2.0 release notes that says this. |
I thought I read it on the sonik****** forum. So I take it there are issues with the smooth sound transmission on the Kurz? For me personally, this is a must-have feature for live performance. |
If I understand this properly (EvilDragon can correct me as necessary):
Kurzweil K2xxx and PC3 basically allow you to set up a single rack of effects and then select new sounds while that rack remains running. The new sounds do not load their own effects. Instead, the rack has a few different busses going to it, and sounds can store their own bus routings. For instance, the rack might have a reverb on bus 1 and a distortion on bus 2. You can call up a piano sound routed to bus 1, and then a lead sound routed to bus 2 - and the reverb will continue to decay as you play your distorted lead.
This is a reasonable solution to the problem of continuous effects. The downsides are that you have to plan all of this bussing and effects-sharing ahead of time; you build special setups for each set of sounds that need to be continuous, and you can't simply use the effects stored in the Programs themselves. Also, you're limited to what you can fit into a single rack of effects all running at once; if you change effects in the rack, the sound is disrupted.
With the KRONOS, you don't need to worry about this stuff. Sounds each load their own rack of effects. During smooth sound transitions, two effects racks coexist side-by-side. Theoretically you could make sounds with such resource-intensive effects setups that they can't coexist - with more than 8 O-verbs each, for instance - but in practice you can switch smoothly between two sounds each with a completely different, full rack of 16 effects, and then keep selecting new sounds indefinitely, one after another, each bringing in their own effects as necessary.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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That is pretty much correct, Dan, except PC3 has 2 Aux send busses for all 16 zones in Setup mode (or per program), and an insert chain per Program/zone. You would usually use your distortions as an insert chain, and ambience effects as aux sends, naturally. You can use as much of them as long as you don't go over the 16 FX unit limit.
Furthermore, each FX chain can consist of several FX blocks, which are your basic effects. If the two FX chains between two programs/setups use the same basic blocks (for example, MiniVerb), but each has different setting, the patch change is seamless. If the FX chains are completely different, and you're still within the 16 FX unit limit, it's still seamless. If the FX chains are completely different and you go over the 16 FX limit, it won't be AS seamless, but it will be noticeable.
If PARTS of 2 FX chains utilize the same basic FX blocks, the patch change for those 2 FX blocks (even if they have different settings) will be seamless. As you can see, there's lots of intricacies to this method, it does take some thinking through it. But it can be made to work in the end.
Still, I'm rather convinced that this will be changed in the next Kurzweil workstation, and to a radical degree.
| danatkorg wrote: | | Theoretically you could make sounds with such resource-intensive effects setups that they can't coexist - with more than 8 O-verbs each, for instance - but in practice you can switch smoothly between two sounds each with a completely different, full rack of 16 effects, and then keep selecting new sounds indefinitely, one after another, each bringing in their own effects as necessary. |
What happens sound-wise in this theoretical example? That sounds like CPU overload and dropped samples across the board! |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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I am using the PC3 live, and it's great for what I purchased it for. I bought it so that I could have up to 8 sounds ready to go, toggle in as necessary - stacked, and then mix them live with the sliders. In this respect, it is perfect.
The strings are great and the various EP patches are fun. FWIW I think the KB3 mode sounds great live - but I am not a B3 player.
The VA sounds very good, but I wish it had a dedicated front end to make programming faster. Even if it emulated a mini moog, that would be fun.
The QA bank is very, very fast and quick to use. I wish there were a quick way to change sounds in the setups - there's no ALL voices view like the Motif AFAIK.
One feature I wish for is to be able to have a button that would "expand" the range of the currently sounding layers across the entire keyboard. Sometimes you have a solo sound etc... in the upper half of the keyboard. It would be cool to be able to press a button and have it mapped across the keyboard quickly.
I think the Kronos and my PC3 will be a great combo.
_________________
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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ozy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| jemkeys25 wrote: | I'll solve your problem,
get a PC3K7 and a kronos 61,problem solved. |
you didn't read my footnote. You didn't even f*ck*ng read my post before answering.
Listen people, I just answered drama1's question out of politeness because it directly asked me,
and I shared my thoughts, because... why? My mistake.
But if EVERY single consideration has got to become THE SAME "kronos contra pc3" or "kronos contra motif" stale debate,
with partisans trading shots
and the Korg propaganda guys clutching at straws,
it's just not worth it.
I don't care s**t about korg or kurzweil, I care about my music.
I own, buy and sell instruments of all kinds and brands.
I've spent a evening mapping program change routings from my pc3 to a kronos,
on paper (yes, I am good at abstract thought and planning before acting)
and I had the stupid idea of sharing a thought.
In a few minutes that's become the usual, lame "forget it and buy a kronos" versus "my pc3 is good" tit for tat.
I am bored to DEATH that every single discussion can't go beyond that.
I'll make my mind about the Kronos abd buy i, or not, but discussing it here is useless.
It's not lack of details about the instument.
It's lack of basic attitude at non-partisan, scientific, commercial thought.
Sorry for being harsh,
but jemkey's post was the single most CRETIN post I have read on this whole forum in YEARS,
he completely obliterated the fact that matching a kronos61 AND a pc3was the original, starting idea,
and that I had discussed it in detail.
This showed me that discussions here happen without even reading other people posts,
and there's only a word for it:
CRETIN.
Night.
Drama1, pls: next time don't open a thread with my name, will you? Thanks. |
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | That is pretty much correct, Dan, except PC3 has 2 Aux send busses for all 16 zones in Setup mode (or per program), and an insert chain per Program/zone. You would usually use your distortions as an insert chain, and ambience effects as aux sends, naturally. You can use as much of them as long as you don't go over the 16 FX unit limit. |
For the benefit of those unfamiliar with Kurzweil synths, they divide the available effects processing power into 16 equally-sized blocks called DSP units (aka PAUs on the KSP8). Each effect can use one or more PAUs. The majority of effects use 2 or more units; many use 3 or 4. Most of the reverbs use 3, for instance, so you can run 5 of them at a time (with one DSP unit left over).
| EvilDragon wrote: | | Furthermore, each FX chain can consist of several FX blocks, which are your basic effects. If the two FX chains between two programs/setups use the same basic blocks (for example, MiniVerb), but each has different setting, the patch change is seamless. |
This wouldn't be entirely seamless; the effects parameters would still change for the old sound, to match the new one. In some cases, that might cause a glitch; at a minimum, the old sound will lose its original effects settings at the point of transition (delay times will change, etc.). The Wavestation did a similar thing, btw.
Finally - as with the OASYS and KRONOS, Kurzweil has a large number of effects, and many ways to configure them. How often do two factory sounds have the exact same effects in the exact same configuration?
It seems like this is the more general case:
| EvilDragon wrote: |
If the FX chains are completely different, and you're still within the 16 FX unit limit, it's still seamless. |
Aha! Got it now; this was part of the PC3 1.3 update, and not in previous versions or the K2xxx, which explains why (lacking an actual PC3 unit here) it took a while for me to find it. Aside from the more limited amount of processing power, and barring other limitations (I've been able to find very little documentation on this - any more pointers would be appreciated), it does seem similar to the KRONOS's smooth sound transitions. I'm sorry that I hadn't understood this previously. It looks like this behavior is controlled by the "FX Mode" parameter. The description in the manual is a little terse, but I found a more clear explanation from Kurzweil engineer Mike Raffe on Sonikmatter:
http://forum.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php/topic/47446-pc3-qualitycomplicated-and-choosy/
"Good info from Dave, but I think the primary problem you're having is that you're in program mode with the 'FX Mode' parameter set to 'Performance.' (If that's not the case, reply with what mode you are in while sequencing.) Program mode by default is optimized for playing one channel at a time; the transitions on program changes are smooth and the previous program's effects continue to sound. One side effect of that is that effects are stolen from any channel that's not the 'current' channel.
"One option is to go to 'Master' mode and set the 'FX Mode' to 'Multitrack.' That will try to keep as many channels of effects as possible loaded, but then if you're just playing on a single channel and doing program changes they won't be as smooth."
| EvilDragon wrote: | | danatkorg wrote: | | Theoretically you could make sounds with such resource-intensive effects setups that they can't coexist - with more than 8 O-verbs each, for instance - but in practice you can switch smoothly between two sounds each with a completely different, full rack of 16 effects, and then keep selecting new sounds indefinitely, one after another, each bringing in their own effects as necessary. |
What happens sound-wise in this theoretical example? That sounds like CPU overload and dropped samples across the board! |
That would be the case with normal computer DAW systems. 
If there isn't enough processing power for the old and new effects racks to coexist, both the old effects rack and all old voices will be silenced, but there won't be any glitches or dropped samples. We've a devoted a very significant amount of development effort to ensuring that there are never CPU overloads or dropped samples with the KRONOS. Much better to steal voices when necessary, and do so musically when at all possible.
Again, this is a pretty unusual case; since the software has been reasonably final, I have never heard this happen in actual use (that is, unless I was deliberately trying to make it happen by filling up all of the slots with O-verbs).
Edit - corrected spelling.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com
Last edited by danatkorg on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| danatkorg wrote: | | How often do two factory sounds have the exact same effects in the exact same configuration? |
I'm noticing that almost all programs in Orchestral and Strings banks (that's almost 256 programs!) are using the same Aux FX chain, 213 Symphony Hall 1, which is 2 PAUs, and some others (in those same banks) are using 217 Live RecitalHall, which is 3 PAUs. No crossover chorus, no EQing, no compression, no nothing. Just pure, great quality orchestral sample, put in a very nice sounding room.
Of course, this is not happening a lot in other banks, but it can happen, as illustrated by above example.
| danatkorg wrote: | | EvilDragon wrote: | | What happens sound-wise in this theoretical example? That sounds like CPU overload and dropped samples across the board! |
That would be the case with normal computer DAW systems.
If there isn't enough processing power for the old and new effects racks to coexist, both the old effects rack and all old voices will be silenced, but there won't be any glitches or dropped samples. We've a devoted a very significant amount of development effort to ensuring that there are never CPU overloads or dropped samples with the KRONOS. Much better to steal voices when necessary, and do so musically when at all possible.
Again, this is a pretty unusual case; since the software has been reasonably final, I have never heard this happen in actual use (that is, unless I was deliberately trying to make it happen by filling up all of the slots with O-verbs). |
This is extremely comforting and very nice to know! |
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Lando
Full Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Well Ozy, at least you got suggestions and ideas from Dan on how to solve effect changing on EP-1 and that isn't too bad?  |
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ozy
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Lando wrote: | | Well Ozy, at least you got suggestions and ideas from Dan on how to solve effect changing on EP-1 and that isn't too bad? |
Yes, good.
Now: which effects? among which? that's the EP part, what about the ethnic instruments (HD and STR) part?
May I plan a setup, based on asking about every detail of a 1000 pages manual paragraph by paragraph?
While slaloming between trollers?
Maybe I am the only obsessive-compulsive moron who reads manuals before buying products [of course, NEVER after buying them  ],
and has his setups laid down for programming the day the new machine come from the shop,
but trying to detect a machine's structure through snippets and a Q&A process is not my idea of "planning". |
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chilly7
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 821
Location: planet Earth
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | danatkorg wrote: | | How often do two factory sounds have the exact same effects in the exact same configuration? |
I'm noticing that almost all programs in Orchestral and Strings banks (that's almost 256 programs!) are using the same Aux FX chain, 213 Symphony Hall 1, which is 2 PAUs, and some others (in those same banks) are using 217 Live RecitalHall, which is 3 PAUs. No crossover chorus, no EQing, no compression, no nothing. Just pure, great quality orchestral sample, put in a very nice sounding room.
Of course, this is not happening a lot in other banks, but it can happen, as illustrated by above example.
| danatkorg wrote: | | EvilDragon wrote: | | What happens sound-wise in this theoretical example? That sounds like CPU overload and dropped samples across the board! |
That would be the case with normal computer DAW systems.
If there isn't enough processing power for the old and new effects racks to coexist, both the old effects rack and all old voices will be silenced, but there won't be any glitches or dropped samples. We've a devoted a very significant amount of development effort to ensuring that there are never CPU overloads or dropped samples with the KRONOS. Much better to steal voices when necessary, and do so musically when at all possible.
Again, this is a pretty unusual case; since the software has been reasonably final, I have never heard this happen in actual use (that is, unless I was deliberately trying to make it happen by filling up all of the slots with O-verbs). |
This is extremely comforting and very nice to know! |
Again u pretent to be very clever and misinform people
Basicly u have no knowladge what are u toking about, but i jast could not resist not to answer for crupp that u have written again.
Kurzweil orcestral or strings never will sound any clouse to dedicated hight quality Orcestral VST or VST strings like from VSL or the real hight grade orcestal
For most of the srings programs or Orecstal programs indeed Kurzweil don't use FX because there is no Kurzweil effect which will make looped , compressed samples of Kurzweil to sound like any clouse to the good real orkecsta.
How ever u basicly misinform people about that Kurzweil use only pure samples for strings or Orcesta with a little of reverb, thay use instid possibilities of VAST to enchant Orekestral or strings programs.
p.s. So in conclusion Kurzweil small compressed looped sampes of Strings or orcestra never will sound in the same legue like VSTs from Vienna.
I have kurzweil pc3 and i have strings VSTs from VSL, and pure VSL strings sound and have realism far sapirior to Kurzweil pure samples, so don't tell me crupp that kurzweil pc3 strings or orcestar will sound as good as VSL can.
just my to cents
I hope next time u are not going to tell people that with kurzweil pc3 u can get very realistic and very good quality sounds of acoust pianos or with pc3 u can get very good pipe organ sounds lol 
with kurzweil pc3 u can get ok sounds for electronic music, but if to speak about acoustic sounds there is no singel category of sounds which will be any clouse to the qiality of sound and realism which u can get with hight quality real instruments or to hight quality vsts... 
_________________
https://слово-божье.рф
https://www.facebook.com/GodenWord/
https://youtube.com/777chillyy777 |
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peter_schwartz
Full Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Ozy,
Did I miss any?
u
pretent
"Basicly u have no knowladge what are u toking about"
jast
crupp
clouse
hight
hight grade orcestal
srings
Orecstal
orkecsta (spelling variant)
instid
Orekestral (spelling variant 2)
strings (strangely correct spelling)
orcestra (spelling variant 3)
legue
sapirior
crupp (again)
orcestar
just my to cents (my favorite)
acoust
singel
clouse (2nd time's a charm)
qiality
hight
quality (it's a miracle!)
hight quality (compound usage)
Last edited by peter_schwartz on Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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theshinenz
Full Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Posts: 240
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Go back and bother the yamaha users over at Motifator, or have you been kicked off that site already?
| chilly7 wrote: | | EvilDragon wrote: | | danatkorg wrote: | | How often do two factory sounds have the exact same effects in the exact same configuration? |
I'm noticing that almost all programs in Orchestral and Strings banks (that's almost 256 programs!) are using the same Aux FX chain, 213 Symphony Hall 1, which is 2 PAUs, and some others (in those same banks) are using 217 Live RecitalHall, which is 3 PAUs. No crossover chorus, no EQing, no compression, no nothing. Just pure, great quality orchestral sample, put in a very nice sounding room.
Of course, this is not happening a lot in other banks, but it can happen, as illustrated by above example.
| danatkorg wrote: | | EvilDragon wrote: | | What happens sound-wise in this theoretical example? That sounds like CPU overload and dropped samples across the board! |
That would be the case with normal computer DAW systems.
If there isn't enough processing power for the old and new effects racks to coexist, both the old effects rack and all old voices will be silenced, but there won't be any glitches or dropped samples. We've a devoted a very significant amount of development effort to ensuring that there are never CPU overloads or dropped samples with the KRONOS. Much better to steal voices when necessary, and do so musically when at all possible.
Again, this is a pretty unusual case; since the software has been reasonably final, I have never heard this happen in actual use (that is, unless I was deliberately trying to make it happen by filling up all of the slots with O-verbs). |
This is extremely comforting and very nice to know! |
Again u pretent to be very clever and misinform people
Basicly u have no knowladge what are u toking about, but i jast could not resist not to answer for crupp that u have written again.
Kurzweil orcestral or strings never will sound any clouse to dedicated hight quality Orcestral VST or VST strings like from VSL or the real hight grade orcestal
For most of the srings programs or Orecstal programs indeed Kurzweil don't use FX because there is no Kurzweil effect which will make looped , compressed samples of Kurzweil to sound like any clouse to the good real orkecsta.
How ever u basicly misinform people about that Kurzweil use only pure samples for strings or Orcesta with a little of reverb, thay use instid possibilities of VAST to enchant Orekestral or strings programs.
p.s. So in conclusion Kurzweil small compressed looped sampes of Strings or orcestra never will sound in the same legue like VSTs from Vienna.
I have kurzweil pc3 and i have strings VSTs from VSL, and pure VSL strings sound and have realism far sapirior to Kurzweil pure samples, so don't tell me crupp that kurzweil pc3 strings or orcestar will sound as good as VSL can.
just my to cents
I hope next time u are not going to tell people that with kurzweil pc3 u can get very realistic and very good quality sounds of acoust pianos or with pc3 u can get very good pipe organ sounds lol
with kurzweil pc3 u can get ok sounds for electronic music, but if to speak about acoustic sounds there is no singel category of sounds which will be any clouse to the qiality of sound and realism which u can get with hight quality real instruments or to hight quality vsts... |
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Bertotti
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Me thiunks Ozy adn EvlDragon has internat stockers! |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Meh, he's trashing all over the place over here because he can't go elsewhere, he wouldn't dare to post such horrible misspellings on Sonikmatter, for example. Idiot. |
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peter_schwartz
Full Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:22 am Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by peter_schwartz on Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Akos Janca
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1158
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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