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A (little) disapointing answr from karo
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zahush76
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: A (little) disapointing answr from karo Reply with quote

I emailed the karo team with a quesrion about their new ksl orchestra library that will be available also for the kronos. First of all, i noticed there's some overlap, since some of the names of the sounds on that library end up with "EXs3". I figured it has to do something with the EXs3 brass & wind expansion. They told me it's a bit different.

Anyway, i asked how big is this library and will it be able to stream from the ssd like the other expansions that come with the kronos. Their answer was:

Quote:
In the moment you can only load our libs into ram, but we speaking with Korg and maybe in the next future you can stream it like the Piano.
the size is about 850MB... the combination of our new KUO unison orchestra are togheter 1,5GB.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards

Kurt Ader


That is not good news...
It means you can't use all the library, and you have to make some very serious un-loading of other sounds.
It's a shame really, since i think their strings sound awsome.
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cello
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got the KSL (for the O) and first off have to say it's amazing and well worth getting!

You can use all of the sounds by simply unloading EXs2 (pianos). KSL then loads perfectly.

Like the OASYS community, you're going to have to get used to some serious and strict sound management policies - and you need to develop them for yourself.

As a studio player, I don't have a problem with unloading and loading sounds. Kind of like MS Word - you open the application then you open the document you want to work on - MS Word doesn't load every single .doc and .docx on your hard drive!

I can see that for live players this might be a bigger problem - but that's the way the system is built and it's certainly not Karo's fault!

Like anything, including the Kronos, buy the KSL for what it can do now - you won't regret it.

And if you spend a lot of time (no exaggeration here - I mean dozens and dozens of hours!) you can set up sound banks that suits your needs.
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zahush76
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cello wrote:
As a studio player, I don't have a problem with unloading and loading sounds.
...I can see that for live players this might be a bigger problem - but that's the way the system is built and it's certainly not Karo's fault!
.


Nobody said it was karo's fault.
I really hope korg will change the os so that libraries like this could be streamed from ssd.

Anyway, about studio vs live:
In the studio i don't see myself using karo's library. I've got the strings that came with my kontakt 4, and the vienna chamber strings. If you're talking about a studio enviorement - i have no reason to use karo. It's small compared to the mega libraries of vienna, eastwest and such.

So we're talking mainly for live use. It really is quality strings compared to what you here from other workstations, which is exactly the reason it's a bummer to pay 483$ for a library you can't fully use.

Let's hope things change.


Last edited by zahush76 on Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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cello
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I misunderstood you, sorry! Form my reading of your post title, it seemed you were disappointed in Karo, so given my experience of the guys there just wanted to defend them.

I see your point now Wink
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zahush76
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About unloading the EXs2 - I'm a bit cofused. There are several piano expansions:

EXs2 - Concert Grand Piano
EXs6 - SGX-1 German D Piano
EXs7 - SGX-1 Japanese C Piano

How big is the EXs2 piano? It's clearly not one of the 4.7 gb pianos (gonna give up one of those as well)
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cello
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zahush76 wrote:
About unloading the EXs2 - I'm a bit cofused. There are several piano expansions:

EXs2 - Concert Grand Piano
EXs6 - SGX-1 German D Piano
EXs7 - SGX-1 Japanese C Piano

How big is the EXs2 piano? It's clearly not one of the 4.7 gb pianos (gonna give up one of those as well)


I was talking about the O - EXs2 has the Concert Grand Piano as you say. But it doesn't have the 6 or 7 of course!

The EXs2 uses 464Mb.
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zahush76
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cello wrote:
zahush76 wrote:
About unloading the EXs2 - I'm a bit cofused. There are several piano expansions:

EXs2 - Concert Grand Piano
EXs6 - SGX-1 German D Piano
EXs7 - SGX-1 Japanese C Piano

How big is the EXs2 piano? It's clearly not one of the 4.7 gb pianos (gonna give up one of those as well)


I was talking about the O - EXs2 has the Concert Grand Piano as you say. But it doesn't have the 6 or 7 of course!

The EXs2 uses 464Mb.


Keep in mind that unloading the EXs2 doesn't make more 464mb available in ram. Just a portion of that goes into ram to begin with.
When i asked dan about unloading one of the big grand pianos, he said that more than 200mb can be freed by unloading one of them. So unloading a 464mb piano translates into about 20-30 more megabytes in the ram.
To sum up - there's almost no way of making room for all the sounds on the ksl library - let alone the combinations of that library and the unison orchestra.
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cello
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd guess you're right that you can load both KSL and KUO to use at the same time (on either the K or O).

Mind you, I think that there's a lot of overlap between the two. I would like to use the voices (choirs) in KUO but it's hard to justify the money when it repeats a lot of what I've already paid forin the KSL!
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Lando
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, seems that you have to unload pretty much everything to squeeze 850 MB KSL in? If 200 MB (out of the total 1 GB of "user RAM") is used by each of the two big pianos, then you can't actually use KSL together with any of the two.

I'm praying for streaming here, or alternative a memory expanding option.

Would be really awesome if someone with access to a Kronos would post exacly how much RAM each ESX uses so we can plan memory management allready.
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EXer
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We always revert to the point:

¤¤¤ the Kronos system should provide its user the possibility to convert user multi-samples into EXs and to use these EXs like preset EXs (i.e. with streaming from the SSD) ¤¤¤
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zahush76
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EXer wrote:
We always revert to the point:

¤¤¤ the Kronos system should provide its user the possibility to convert user multi-samples into EXs and to use these EXs like preset EXs (i.e. with streaming from the SSD) ¤¤¤


"Should" - as in not at the moment, but definetly should be this way...?
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there should be NO EXs conversion process, period. Stuff from the SSD should be streamed, ALL OF IT no matter what it is, period.


Add that and the possibility of upgrading to 4 GB of RAM (up to 3 GB available for user samples), and THEN we're talking.
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EXer
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Currently there may be limitations on streaming technology that require data to have a certain format in order to be streamed efficiently.

In this case, converting would at least be a way to achieve the result for want of anything better...
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zahush76
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EXer wrote:
Currently there may be limitations on streaming technology that require data to have a certain format in order to be streamed efficiently.

In this case, converting would at least be a way to achieve the result for want of anything better...


Sure.
But what i was asking about was, what you meant when you wrote:
Quote:
the Kronos system should provide its user the possibility to convert user multi-samples into EXs


From the way you put it, i understand that right now a user can't convert multi-samples into EXs - and that it would be nice if korg will allow this in the future.
But right now you can't do it. So the only option, really, is to upload stuff like the karo library - into ram on boot up. And that's a big big bummer.

I can live with this limitation when we're talking about user samples like loops or sampled breaks from vinyl records that i make by myself. But serious libraries of quality sounds that cost 483$ - but can not be streamed from the ssd is a shame...
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MartinHines
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at it this way -- Korg wants to guarantee a certain level of performance.

The Kronos two pianos and acoustic drums are of a known size and have been tested extensively to ensure when using them you obtain the polyphony stated in the specifications.

If you Korg were to let you stream anything you want, all bets about performance are off. If you have a PC or Mac, use Kontakt, and try to stream too many samples, you will get audio dropouts. Do you complain to Native Instruments? No. However, I can guarantee there would be people complaining to Korg if SSD streaming caused dropouts. People have different expectations for a workstation, especially in llive performance. A workstation is supposed to just work, exactly as described in the brochure.

I think the chances are higher that Korg will eventually support adding 2GB of additional RAM before they open up SSD disk streaming. Even if they "opened" SSD disk streaming, it would probably still be controlled by Korg, meaning they would test the library before it was made available.

Part of the issue is the Kronos processor. It was selected for a specific price/performance ratio (since more processor power would have added to the cost). In the end, Korg has to make sure the Kronos works.
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