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robinkle
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 382
Location: Norway
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 Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | robinkle wrote: | If Yamaha could adapt their Vector synthesis from the SY-22/35, they would have similar things with the Wavestation.  |
I'm really hoping that Yamaha does make an all in one similar to the Kronos. I think it'd be a great piece of kit. HOWEVER, knowing Yamaha it'd be priced higher than the OASYS was. This is part of the reason the Kronos is such a killer. |
http://www.synthark.org/Yamaha/GS-1.html
In december this year, it will be 20 years since the release of Yamaha GS-1 FM synth. Which I believe is Yamaha's first FM synth, released on the market. Many of the famous FM sounds were born on this keyboard. And I hope it will trigger Yamaha into making a keyboard because of this. |
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synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| JPWC wrote: | I have an Motif XS6 and a Fantom G7, that I would not part with. They are both excellent workstations that serve me well. I am working the dude at Guitar Center to trade in my XS6 and a old Fantom X7 for a Motif XF7.
I also have a M3 that I would like to keep. |
Same here, except my Motif and Fantom are a couple of generations back.
I thought about selling my M3-73, but it has such a niiice keyboard, I doubt I ever will. The Fantom I'm considering, but the darn thing offers a few textures I know I'll miss. Besides, I've regretted every sale I've ever made.
The KRONOS can replace just about everything I have, including my recently purchased Kurzweil PC3. Aaaand... I can send it back. I know that the KRONOS is some kind of holy grail synth. But I'm a helpless gear junkie, and a synthesist, and all these cool toys do something unique, from my MKS-50 a-Juno module on up. Yes, I'm the poster boy for G.A.S.  But as McHale says:
| McHale wrote: | | An interesting side note, because of their implementation of AL-1, I'm keeping my RADIAS and I once thought I could dump my DVP-1 and functionally it can't replace that either. |
AL-1 just doesn't quite do everything the RADIAS does, and they both sound a little different. Plus those knobs are nice.
| robinkle wrote: | | Yamaha work like Clavia. Minor upgrades for each new keyboard. It's too slow. The companies need to catch up. I don't think Korg is ahead, they are where they should be. That is my opinion. |
This is undoubtedly true. Yamaha made the EX-5 with a number of synth engines and 128 voice polyphony (with the AWM2 engine) back in 2000. No doubt, they understood that the market was calling for a synth which was the ideal rompler and worked towards those ends for a decade. It is really good, it sounds really good, and the articulations work well. But... it's just a rompler. Kind of like the Jupiter-80 but less so, and people are dumping on the Jupiter. As Rich F so eloquently stated, "rompler" has become a bad word. Keyboardists are finally really, seriously ready to move on from the status quo, and right now, their only hope is Kurzweil and KRONOS, and The K is the real step forward.
| MartinHines wrote: | | Sorry but I do not believe in Unicorns. |
I 
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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The clarity of HD-1 is only as good as the sample content it is capable of reproducing, and from what I have played and heard, Motif has great sample content, OASYS not so much.
I consider my Trinity's 48khz sample playback rate as a form of HD output, but its guitar samples, althought clean and pristine, pale beside Motif XS' guitar waveforms. Motif XS' are way way better. I said this years ago in regard to OASYS guitar samples as well, but perhaps Kronos will have more ROM dedicated to guitars, so we'll see.
I have no problem confusing "clarity" with "brilliant samples" - they are two completely different things.
Motifs have traditionally recycled and improved upon what works well, and the refinements integreated into each iteration of Motif are well thought out and pleasing to my fingers and ears.
I have high-def TVs at home and in the studio as many others do, but a lot of the content that comes across is - well - crap.
With 12GB of sample data on SSD (which btw is a minimal amount of storage considering that you can pop way more into a MacBook) I can't help feeling that - along with the Atom processor - the technology living inside Kronos already appears dated - at pre-launch no less.
Then again, the OASYS' Pentium processor was already long in the tooth coming out the gate, and a lot of O owners are still happy (apart from the ones who are pissed). There's only so much that can be done when comitting to a long-term design plan... or is there? |
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afr
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Bye bye KRONOS |
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| Unicorn wrote: | "KORG and Commitments = A Big Joke". My second bad experience in a row post buying an Oasys. Having used KORG since it's O1/W (best workstation so far), Trinity, Triton and Oasys, I have decided to "give up" on the buggers and move on with something more sensible.
I recently tried a Motif XF8 and I must say what a monster it is! It is leap years ahead than Oasys HD1, EXS2, Str1 etc. Well Str1 is as good as a Casio so I'd not compare that with anything else really. Given Kronos is just another Oasys, there is zero chance of it competing with the XF. For anologue stuff I'm better off buying an analogue synth instead of a rubbish thing like a sampled or modelled analogue synth.
I will however have my sympathy for all those who would wash out their wallets in the dust and all those who would have sold their current gear for dirt cheap price to get the Kronos. However please continue do sell your gear, people like me are awaiting to buy them, and we will also buy Kronos after 6 months post it's release at half of it's price
This is hilarious. I'm done with this whole madness - not worth spending time and money. I have now canceled my pre-order so one of you will get it earlier by a few hours (sounds like a big reason to celebrate right  ). Bye bye Kronos!!
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You can save money and buy a new yamaha mo x8, same sound less money. Kronos is something more, a lot more |
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Please sir, I want more...
Roland's "SuperNatural" engines seem to be refinements of the old Structured Adaptive Synthesis concept, which turned out to be very expressive albeit limited by the technology of the day. Supernatural sounds like - and appears to be - something more as well, a lot more.
Not Kronos-like more as in more engines, musician-like more as in enhanced playability.
As always, different beasts for different feasts |
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afr
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| subject of discussion is motif xf vs. Kronos, motif is a good sample based instrument, kronos is more, you have pcm, fm, strings res, va and so on, in my opinion is more flexible. The new roland j80 seems to be interesting, but I would like to play it and test it before to express an opinion |
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synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| rrricky rrrecordo wrote: | | With 12GB of sample data on SSD (which btw is a minimal amount of storage considering that you can pop way more into a MacBook) I can't help feeling that - along with the Atom processor - the technology living inside Kronos already appears dated - at pre-launch no less. |
You computer guys do live in a marvelous world, when your stuff works as advertised. I've had lousy, rotten luck with it unfortunately. And a lot of it is as obtuse and user hostile as Pro Tools. And I do like Pro Tools. But a friend of mine left me with his MOTU-based soft studio running on a Macbook Pro, and he explained how to navigate through everything, then left me to have fun with it. I immediately crashed it.  And I couldn't figure out how to get it back up. It took my pal a few tries too. Of course, then later on something went critically wrong, and he was stuck with a dead studio for a few weeks.
I do want to get into this world somewhat. I love the Arturia softsynths, and Omnisphere is the stuff of dreams. Giga-sample files are luscious, but you need tons of ram to host a few instruments and a DAW. And other than those, I'm not too impressed with the soft synth world. I'd rather have a Sonic-Core system and Solaris. I do intend to get there this year, but I'm getting my hardware lined up first. Because as cool as everyone's favorite soft-toys are, hardware is still just plonk and play, with essentially zero latency.
As for KRONOS being dated, where does that leave Motif? A whopping 700-plus megabyte sound rom is freaking huge, and the articulations are nice. But this is decade-plus vintage sample playback technology. There's one synth engine. Very good sounding, but... it's just a rompler. I already have an M3 with KARMA and a Radias board built in, and it sounds marvelous.
I bought a PC3 because KRONOS may be late to the game this summer, and these guys are quickly going back up in price. Like Motif, the VAST engine is decade-plus old. But it's so advanced that many keyboardists run screaming from it, leaving sound designers to create patches for them.
While Roland seems to be everyone's favorite whipping boy, I still like my Fantom X, still get marvelous patches from it and am loathe to sell it. And... by golly, Jupiter-80 is looking awesomer by the day.
It seems that, if you ask everyone to be fair, there's a useful amount of coolness in just about every instrument. But likewise, if you're fair to KRONOS, you have to admit that it largely takes away the advantages of everything else, and offers synthesis and songmaking power that's very hard to replace. And eventually, just about everyone is going to want to get one. Or fib that they're not.
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JimH
Full Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 179
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| nitecrawler wrote: | | Ah Unicorn.....its a joke, right? Very funny. LOL The Casio reference did it for me. Either it was a joke or you have no idea what you are talking about. |
Has to be a joke. If he thinks Kronos is so bad why did he pre-order one in the first place?
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Korg Kronos 61, DSS-1, EX-8000
VAX77; John Bowen Solaris; Yamaha S90ES, TX81Z; Hammond XK3c; Kurzweil K2000S, PC88mx; Minimoog (orig) |
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jemkeys25
Full Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:15 am Post subject: |
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yamaha lost me when they stopped using thier plg boards, i don't care how many megs of samples you use,its still a rompler, give me a true synth anytime, analog or digital, doesn't matter.
I think your just upset cause its taking so long for kronos' release.
yamaha xf PLEASE! |
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Penumbra
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | | Quote: | | I recently tried a Motif XF8 and I must say what a monster it is! It is leap years ahead than Oasys HD1, EXS2, Str1 etc. |
I fail to even remotely see your point of view on this. The Motif uses AWM2 which Yamaha have been flogging to death for 15 or more years. And you think that's better than HD-1 ? 
Feck me...!!! That's mad. The clarity of HD-1 is so bloody obvious that it's hard to even contemplate moving away from a OASYS or a KRONOS.
I think your making a very big mistake.
Regards
Sharp |
Ok, the HD-1 it's powerful, but the sample set sucks, that's why the XF wins. The truth it's the instant impact the Motif gives, good natural sounds are the basics (if not the main component) for any genre. Korg stuff must pay a visit to a ear doctor if they'll state that their acoustic and natural sounds are good. In short, I'm agree that HD-1 has the best clarity and quality but if you put in it sucky, unrealistic samples, it's useless. That's the fact. Kronos will have the same problem, that's another fact. They are just fooling us, you included dear James. Just think of the HD-1 with a better sound set (more articulations, more samples), and then yes that it'd blow away everything. |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Hi Penumbra.
| Quote: | | Ok, the HD-1 it's powerful, but the sample set sucks, that's why the XF wins. |
That's a very narrow view. You have to admit that HD-1 is universally superior in every way imaginable. This is only one of 9 engines the XF does not have. The Effects Engine on the KRONOS hugely out powers the XF too and lets not even compare KORG's COMBI mode to what Yamaha has. So in every area there are clear specs and facts and show the XF is by far the lesser machine and by a mile, not an inch.
That leaves us only the RAW sample to talk about. Yes, Yamaha does have stronger real-world samples in "certain" area's but that's all they have going for them. That's by no means any reason to even remotly consider it the better machine when it's so weak in every other area.
If a KRONOS user feels the real-world sounds are weak in a certain area then they can do the same as most of us have and buy a AKAI Disk and never worry about the problem again.
Which reminds me, that's another area where the XF is pointless. It takes upwards of 1 hour to load a typical library of 1GB. The KRONOS does it in seconds.
Sharp.
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Last edited by Sharp on Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MartinHines
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| rrricky rrrecordo wrote: | | With 12GB of sample data on SSD (which btw is a minimal amount of storage considering that you can pop way more into a MacBook) I can't help feeling that - along with the Atom processor - the technology living inside Kronos already appears dated - at pre-launch no less. |
Keyboards are purpose-built to provide specific functionality at a specific price point. The technology simply supports that functionality. As long as the Kronos technology delivers what is promised in terms of sound and polyphony, then it is not "dated" at all.
I find it interesting that you discuss the Kronos in terms of its internal hardware, but then discuss the Motif XS only in terms of its functionality.
If the Kronos technology is "dated" then Yamaha and Roland technology is pre-historic. |
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Zeroesque
Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 451
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| rrricky rrrecordo wrote: | | I consider my Trinity's 48khz sample playback rate as a form of HD output, but its guitar samples, althought clean and pristine, pale beside Motif XS' guitar waveforms. Motif XS' are way way better. |
Comparing 1995 to 2007? Wow. Thanks for the info. Why don't we compare a Yamaha W7 to an Oasys?
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Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10 |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeroesque wrote: | | rrricky rrrecordo wrote: | | I consider my Trinity's 48khz sample playback rate as a form of HD output, but its guitar samples, althought clean and pristine, pale beside Motif XS' guitar waveforms. Motif XS' are way way better. |
Comparing 1995 to 2007? Wow. Thanks for the info. Why don't we compare a Yamaha W7 to an Oasys? |
ricky trolls the forum hard with his ' opinions '
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Roland and Yamaha are hardly pre-historic. Roland is hard at work on a SuperNatural Step Sequencer and it's huge, apparently soon available as an iphone app as well |
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