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Bye bye KRONOS
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member

Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject:

GregC wrote:

Zeroesque wrote:

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:

I consider my Trinity's 48khz sample playback rate as a form of HD output, but its guitar samples, althought clean and pristine, pale beside Motif XS' guitar waveforms. Motif XS' are way way better.

Comparing 1995 to 2007? Wow. Thanks for the info. Why don't we compare a Yamaha W7 to an Oasys? Laughing

ricky trolls the forum hard with his ' opinions '
Laughing

Greg trolls the forum hard to bash opinions

chilly7
Platinum Member

Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 821
Location: planet Earth

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject:

Penumbra wrote:

Sharp wrote:

Quote:

I recently tried a Motif XF8 and I must say what a monster it is! It is leap years ahead than Oasys HD1, EXS2, Str1 etc.

I fail to even remotely see your point of view on this. The Motif uses AWM2 which Yamaha have been flogging to death for 15 or more years. And you think that's better than HD-1 ? Shocked

Feck me...!!! That's mad. The clarity of HD-1 is so bloody obvious that it's hard to even contemplate moving away from a OASYS or a KRONOS.

I think your making a very big mistake.

Regards
Sharp

Ok, the HD-1 it's powerful, but the sample set sucks, that's why the XF wins. The truth it's the instant impact the Motif gives, good natural sounds are the basics (if not the main component) for any genre. Korg stuff must pay a visit to a ear doctor if they'll state that their acoustic and natural sounds are good. In short, I'm agree that HD-1 has the best clarity and quality but if you put in it sucky, unrealistic samples, it's useless. That's the fact. Kronos will have the same problem, that's another fact. They are just fooling us, you included dear James. Just think of the HD-1 with a better sound set (more articulations, more samples), and then yes that it'd blow away everything.

I used to have Motif XS, there are no natural samples at all in that machine, all their samples are enchantned and eqed and even pianos sound really unnutural. thay might sound better at first impresion, at solo but when it comes to studio work it becoumes a mess....
while korg samples are more siner at first look, but when u work in the studio and u creat a song, it much more easy to creat a song with out mess in frequency spectrum....
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member

Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject:

chilly7 wrote:

The XS seems to have some pretty natural sounding samples to me, and they play well with others in my experience. I bought both the XS and the M3 around the same time, but soon enough got rid of the M3 because it simply didn't measure up for me. I agree that the piano samples in the XS are weak, but they are miles ahead of what the M3 had on offer. Easily remedied in the XS simply by loading in K-Sounds 500mb C7 though... now that is one sweet Joanna to play.

I'm hoping that Korg has taken more care in creating their sample ROM for the Kronos. My MicroStation shows promise in its limited yet well done sample set, so if they get that right this time around in Kronos, well... OASYS was unable to tempt me, but perhaps Kronos will "seal the deal".

chilly7
Platinum Member

Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 821
Location: planet Earth

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject:

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:

chilly7 wrote:

Well I was speaking about factory samples in motif xs, but i did not have any expirience with 3rd party samples, so I cannot coment about this Wink

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synthguy
Platinum Member

Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:32 pm Post subject:

Penumbra wrote:

Wow... is this ever a loaded opinion. And in my opinion, your ears must be biased.

I agree that the Motifs sound great overall. I know pianos are a sore spot with everyone and with every major brand, but I'm quite pleased with Yamaha's piano samples, and the variety of them. The drums and percussion are also outstanding, as are many of the acoustic samples. BUT, they are a mixed bag. My Motif has an acoustic guitar that I just can't play because it was sampled too hard, and there are many other examples. I still love the sound overall, and would never give it up.

But I have an M3, and even compared to my newly purchased PC3 - which I'm having second thoughts about, sadly - this is my go-to board for composing. I find the pianos to be on par, and overall, the samples to be slightly better and at least as playable. The weak spot to me are the effects and drum samples, but that's what my Motif is for. Wink

Take it from an audiophile-slash-home engineer who has done countless recordings for friends using everything from TASCAM 688 cassette-based Portastudios to Pro Tools, and managing to get everything to sound good even with cheap mics. I listen to everything on a synth, including raw waves. The quality of KORG and Yamaha are both very good across the board. Some are better in one over the other, but offhand, I don't recall any stinkers in either. My PC3 is also an incredible synth, but I have to say that if you want to pick on an instrument, numerous acoustic multisamples on the PC3 suffer from dreadful heavy handed compression at the first second or so. I spent a few hours last night listening to the raw samples, and I was shocked. It makes the overall instrument sound compressed, because it's very hard to put those dynamics back in using envelopes, and Kurzweil doesn't completely succeed. I thought it was from the master effects compressor, but darn if it isn't in a bunch of the samples themselves. Wow.

Motif's articulations are neat, but honestly, I barely notice them. The XF sounds much better than the earlier Motifs, but then it's also almost as much as a KRONOS. And... let's face it, the KRONOS makes almost everything look last Millenium, especially the rompler-only Motif and Fantom. And I like my Motif and Fantom.

I'd love to own an XF, but it's going to have to wait until I buy everything else, and that includes getting a nice vintage analog like an Oberheim or Memorymoog. So it's going to be a while.
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GregC
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Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject:

synthguy wrote:

Penumbra wrote:

I have owned the XS Motif and the M3(M) and an Extreme.
I have sold all 3.

It was obvious to me back in late January, that the Kronos was going to be a rompler killer, especially with the SGX-1 and EP-1.

I think some folks are choosing to ignore the obvious strength of the SGX-1
and EP-1.
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member

Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject:

GregC wrote:

I think some folks are choosing to ignore the obvious strength of the SGX-1
and EP-1.

I'm not sure these elements are being ignored. They're being compared to alternatives by "trolls" in your vernacular, but I think that they're both a nice step forward in a workstation. Once we get to play with them and get a true perspective on their capabilities, they will stand - or not - on their own merits. Nice parts to a nice sum at first blush though

JimH
Full Member

Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 179
Location: San Jose, CA

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject:

jemkeys25 wrote:

yamaha lost me when they stopped using thier plg boards, i don't care how many megs of samples you use,its still a rompler, give me a true synth anytime, analog or digital, doesn't matter.

As you may know, Yamaha claims that they discontinued the PLG boards because they didn't sell that well. People seem to like the idea of the PLG boards but I guess they didn't actually buy enough of them. Same with mLAN---it's great technology but I guess it just didn't sell well enough (and I'd venture to guess it probably generated too many customer support problems for them.)
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member

Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject:

Zeroesque wrote:

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:

I consider my Trinity's 48khz sample playback rate as a form of HD output, but its guitar samples, althought clean and pristine, pale beside Motif XS' guitar waveforms. Motif XS' are way way better.

Comparing 1995 to 2007?

No, comparing HD to not-so-HD. If you look at the prototype for the original OASYS concept (the instrument, not the PC card) and compare it with the Trinity, the resemblances are striking. I would suggest that the clarity of the Trinity's sample playback engine has easily withstood the test of time. The hardware and pure audio quality of Trinity easily eclipsed every Triton that followed it, and still gives the M3 a good run for the money. My Trinity's MOSS board is circa 1995 (maybe 1996) as well, but still inspires and kicks serious VA and modelling ass.

Trinity was a revelation. Kronos carries it all forward.

MartinHines
Platinum Member

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject:

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:

Roland and Yamaha are hardly pre-historic. Roland is hard at work on a SuperNatural Step Sequencer and it's huge, apparently soon available as an iphone app as well Wink

We aren't talking about iPad apps, we are talking about workstation hardware.

You seem very focused complaining about the Kronos "already dated" hardware, but that criticism seems to be absent when you talk about your Motif XS.

There is nothing wrong with criticism as long as it is fair and balanced. Talking about Kronos "dated hardware", but then ignoring any mention of Motif XS hardware seems imbalanced.

I will say again, the Kronos technology is far superior to the Fantom or Motif technology, especially the Motif XS. Of course, as I said earlier, all workstations should be judged on their functionality, not their internal hardware components.

rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member

Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject:

MartinHines wrote:

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:

Roland and Yamaha are hardly pre-historic. Roland is hard at work on a SuperNatural Step Sequencer and it's huge, apparently soon available as an iphone app as well Wink

We aren't talking about iPad apps, we are talking about workstation hardware.

Apparently you didn't click on the link...

...or maybe you did, and it blew your mind Wink

JimH
Full Member

Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 179
Location: San Jose, CA

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject:

MartinHines wrote:

Of course, as I said earlier, all workstations should be judged on their functionality, not their internal hardware components.

I agree. If you knew that Kronos was using ten of the latest TI DSPs to do the same thing, would that be better? You have to keep in mind that much of the technology is in the software. Most people can't just grab an Intel Atom processor and instantly get so much great sound and polyphony out of it. The reason Korg can is because the software has been optimized over the years.

I have to confess that when I found out that the Kronos ran on only one Intel Atom, I was a bit shocked. I wasn't familiar with OASYS at the time. “I don't want to pay $3800 for one general-purpose processor!” That's the natural reaction, but I just keep telling myself a lot of the value is in the software.

Korg has an advantage over software plug-ins. You cannot get an AL-1, MOD7, or STR-1 that runs on a computer. You have to buy the keyboard to get the software. No pirating. (So the Kronos is kind of like a big dongle in a way.)
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rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member

Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:10 pm Post subject:

JimH wrote:

Korg has an advantage over software plug-ins. You cannot get an AL-1, MOD7, or STR-1 that runs on a computer. You have to buy the keyboard to get the software. No pirating. (So the Kronos is kind of like a big dongle in a way.)

And you can't run Omnisphere on Kronos, or any other plug-in for that matter. So Kronos wins?

That's a big dongle indeed... a boondongle Laughing

MartinHines
Platinum Member

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject:

JimH wrote:

I have to confess that when I found out that the Kronos ran on only one Intel Atom, I was a bit shocked. I wasn't familiar with OASYS at the time. “I don't want to pay $3800 for one general-purpose processor!” That's the natural reaction, but I just keep telling myself a lot of the value is in the software.

What is really strange is the same people who complain about the OASYS or Kronos internal hardware seem completely unaware that other manufacturers (like Roland and Yamaha) are using even LESS EXPENSIVE hardware.

When people are considering buying a Roland Fantom G or Yamaha Motif XF, do they think about the cost of their internal parts compared to a personal computer? I don't think so.

What is really funny is I also did not hear anyone complaining about the cost of the internal parts of the Korg M3, even though I can guarantee the internal Kronos parts are more expensive.

Unicorn

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 46

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:04 am Post subject:

MartinHines wrote:

I will say again, the Kronos technology is far superior to the Fantom or Motif technology, especially the Motif XS. Of course, as I said earlier, all workstations should be judged on their functionality, not their internal hardware components.

We heard you; let me assure that repeating the same point may not always help selling the point.

What matters is the 'outcomes' - the discussion of what technology enables which functional capability is void as far as it helps achieving the desired outcomes. There are people who like the outcomes of XF, you do not necessarily have to agree with their views.
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