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Pipe organ
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Pipe organ Reply with quote

I was wondering if anyone could provide any insight or point me in the direction of some samples of pipe organ from the KRONOS and OASYS.

Not exactly an important instrument for me as a musician but I think it iswhich takes a lot to get right and is underrepresented in my current gear. I'm currently writing a church piece for my parents marriage vow renewal so this question came to mind. A bit of an unusual one perhaps.
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cello
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there - maybe unusual but a wonderfully interesting one!

Would help me to help you (at least as far as the O is concerned) if you have an idea about which type of organ music you're creating.

A quick run through of the programs (haven't tried combis yet) made me realise that if the piece is detailed like Bach or Widor toccatas then there a few sounds that seems to fit the bill. However - should the piece be more sustained and less detailed (Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique for example), then other sounds seem to work better - well as far as my old ears go!

Happy to help in any way possible so if you have any further thoughts let's see what we can do Smile
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chilly7
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just my 2 rubels....

There is nothing that can beat Hauptwerk VST.... Wink
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X-Trade -

First, congrats to your parents (and you).

Thoughts on pipe organ...

Classical pipe organs build sounds by activating tones at various harmonics at variable volumes by 'pulling out all the stops' (in case you ever wondered where that phrase came from) or voice tones in combination.

So, rather than looking for the grand pipe master sample you might want to look at "building" a pipe organ sound using a couple of imitative methods, or a combination of them.

Classic pipe organs can readily be thought of as additive synths. You're building sounds by adding harmonics - drawbar organs are an example of how this principle has been applied to electronic instruments.

So: A combi that brings together similar pipe organ tones at pedal (-24) sub octave (-12) root (0) Octave (12), +5 (17) using drawbar controls for balance might give a good result.

-------------------

The other method is orchestral in nature, where you combine tonal layers made up of sine (flute) square (brass) and triangle (reed) tones. If you don't care to program your own just look for tonally varied pipe organs - I would think single rather than doubled osc's would work best - and vary tones by accenting voices in octave range and volume balance.

----------------

Lastly pay attention to the reverb "space" - Big is Good. Natural is Better.

Don't use non-acoustic effects like chorus - rather use slight detune.

Oh, and use a non-tempered scale, tailored for the key you plan to play in.


BB
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robinkle
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think MOD-7 would be useful for this, using 6 carrier sine waves with different octaves and then sample it if needed. Smile It's the easiest FM synth patch to make I think. Smile
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except pipe organ flutes are not pure sine waves. It's a good thing MOD-7 can load samples, that can easily solve this, though.
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robinkle
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
Except pipe organ flutes are not pure sine waves. It's a good thing MOD-7 can load samples, that can easily solve this, though.
Could be waveshaping can help or triangle waves, but to my ear pure sine waves makes a good church organ. Smile It's worth a try to make it for your taste.
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robinkle,

The FM engine is certainly one place to start. Don't have to limit it to sine wave, tho' they'd give a fair imitation of the flute stops. Practically any simple wave shape can make a fair organ tone.

The additive and orchestral methods I outlined (above/prev post) could make use of existing programs/organ tones in the HD-1 engine, which individually, may not sound too impressive, but which, in combination can get much closer to the "true" pipe sounds.

Again, I want to emphasize that we're talking about really wimpy sounds here. The individual sounds don't need to be huge cathedral shakers. Unless you've played a real pipe organ and just pulled out one stop, you might not believe how unprepossessing the sound can be -- almost subliminal. They only become massive in layered ranks.

BB
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robinkle
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billbaker wrote:
Robinkle,

The FM engine is certainly one place to start. Don't have to limit it to sine wave, tho' they'd give a fair imitation of the flute stops. Practically any simple wave shape can make a fair organ tone.

The additive and orchestral methods I outlined (above/prev post) could make use of existing programs/organ tones in the HD-1 engine, which individually, may not sound too impressive, but which, in combination can get much closer to the "true" pipe sounds.

Again, I want to emphasize that we're talking about really wimpy sounds here. The individual sounds don't need to be huge cathedral shakers. Unless you've played a real pipe organ and just pulled out one stop, you might not believe how unprepossessing the sound can be -- almost subliminal. They only become massive in layered ranks.

BB


I can't read minds so I don't know how exactly anyone would like a pipe organ to sound, I'm only trying to give advice. If a six carrier pipe organ in MOD-7 is too much, then you can reduce to 4 or 3 carriers and mute the others.
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billbaker, some excellent advice there on building a pipe organ sound.

My original question, was whether there are any patches on OASYS or KRONOS that do this well? believable even?
I should check out the expansion samples voice listing. I was hoping KRONOS or maybe even the OASYS might have some better pipe organ samples and patches on board.


I'm personally a fan of the massive block mixture stop sounds however in the case of what I'm working on now I've gone for something a bit more subtle. The 'church organ' patches on my KARMA seem quite adequate at the softer end but I never find the bigger patches to be believable enough.

I'm also keen on these patches that try to be an instrument of their own - using the switches and/or knobs/joystick to bring in and out different stops etc.

Being that this is going to be played on CD in the church I'm trying to deliberately mix down on the reverb, but that is really difficult to judge.
The church here does have a nice characterful little pipe organ although it sounds a little too small for my liking, consisting mainly of flue pipes, it sounds quite similar to the 'DWGS sine organ' triton patch!
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Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
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Last edited by X-Trade on Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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burningbusch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should take Chilly's advise and look at the Hauptwerk. There is a free version at the site which is limited in polyphony (256) but seems outstanding. As this is going on CD and you are familiar with soft synths based on you signature, this seems like the best bet.

http://www.hauptwerk.com/

Busch.
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robinkle -

no disrespect intended.

I was trying to clarify my post, not comment on yours -- except to advise looking beyond sine waves to get a more reedy or brassy sound.

FM is indeed worth looking at. My 4-op FB-01 gave out some great tones. If I'd had extra carriers, extra waves and FX to work with they could only have been better.

BB
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Bertotti
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love organs as some may have noticed form some previous posts, especially pipe organs! I love this thread and am watching avidly to see where it goes. My biggest hold up to a Kronos is the organ tones and how fast they can be played.
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Gargamel314
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EDS engine of the M3 has some great pipe organ sounds, of a lot of different varieties. Since EDS is based off of HD-1, I'm sure these would be included in the Kronos (probably better). The only actual sound demo from the M3 that includes this that i know of is here - look at 8:25 in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx1olQHSQVU

There's also a very full Reed Organ program in there too, your typical "Positive" program, and a bunch of others I can't remember off-hand. They all sound very realistic, full and convincing to me... if you've played the Triton Extreme, they are comparable to the progs located in the end of Bank A
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK --

So, next round.

you should be able to mix your sound sources - from what ever engine they come - in combi mode using the assignable data sliders on the front of the instrument.

That would yield a more mixable instrument, either in a tone-wheel-clone aspect (FM harmonic elements) or as a variable registration coloration (orchestral) mix.

--------

Couple of other tricks - two other things I like to add are glock or tubular bells way down in the mix or as velocity-added ear candy, and tuba (-12) limited to the left hand as a low rumbler.

BB
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