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Drums

 
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nowtime
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:30 pm    Post subject: Drums Reply with quote

I must admit I am a sucker for good latency-free drum kits, hits and percussion for all genres, especially hiphop, electronica, dance kits and world percussion. Really excited about setting up kits with kik, snare, hats and percussion being sent out on 4 channels into 4 separate loopers into Ableton Live for some freehand separated loops.

When I played some of the M3 kits years ago on that sweet keybed at a music store I was in heaven. And that has 4 (?) velocity layers I believe. Kronos has 8?

Would love to hear about the Oasys kits, and anything from Rich about new additions for the K.

Another topic of interest for me is placement of specific drums for keyboard drummers. There is the standard setup with hats on black F#-A#, etc but I should scientifically study what it is about other random placements of drums that sometimes inspires great keyboard drumming.

Wondering also, how easy it is on the Kronos to change the placement of different hits on presets and drop in some of my own samples.
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowtime.. great questions...

Yes, there are 8 stereo velocity layers with velocity fading.. each layer for each drum key has its own level, transpose, tune, attack, decay, filter cutoff and resonance offset, 3 Band Eq, drive. Panning and effects routing common for all layers, but each key has it's own panning and effects routing.... so you can router kicks to IFX1, snare to IFX2, hats to IFX3... etc.

Keeping the standard GM map for drums save a LOT of time..... Most of the MIDI drum loops and patterns use the standard map.. so it works without spending time to change each kit...

Which brings me to the most painful part (IMHO) of KRONOS and that is drums editing and customizing the kits for SONGs.... All of that powerful editing option is burried in GLOBAL mode.....

So, in the middle of SONG1 you realize that the snare is not that tight and need to cut reverb on it.... or layer a sample on top of it...... you are out of luck..... you can't customize the kit for this song... you have to stop the sequencer, find which drum kit is being used for the program, call that kit in Global mode, find the snare key, edit/tweak it, and the save the kit..... guess what? All programs using that kit have this tweaked snare, which you only wanted to do for THIS Song....

Let's say now in SONG 2, you are using the same kit, but in this one you want a little more reverb on the snare, but not on the kick... so there you go again... find the kit, go to global mode, edit it... but this time, you have to copy the kit as user kit in global, then go into program mode, select the new kit for a new drums program, save it.... then get into song 2, change the part to use the new program....

Repeat the above for each drums key tweak you have to do for the songs........ It shouldn't be this cumbersome to tweak drums.... For this reason... I do not think the KORG workstations are the best choice for loops production..

Now if you jump to Motif or Fantom... completely different story.. you can easily edit the kits right from the song and the tweaks are kept with THAT song.........
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nowtime
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goodness gracious! I'm thankful that I won't be using Kronos' sequencer for song production.

I wonder if the kits will match and beat the M3's - I will be happy either way.
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dustymaestro



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouch, there's no editing other than global mode? No program editing?
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Citizen Klaus
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowtime wrote:
Goodness gracious! I'm thankful that I won't be using Kronos' sequencer for song production.

I wonder if the kits will match and beat the M3's - I will be happy either way.


The Kronos' drums should be much better than the M3's. In addition to having uncompressed samples (vs. compressed on the M3), the Kronos has a couple of EXs sample expansions dedicated almost entirely to drum kits.

One thing that's also come up in demonstrations of the Kronos is that apparently the HD-1 engine has a new drums mode, with a unique GUI. Not sure what this means in terms of workflow improvements, however.
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Kontrol49
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:

.... All of that powerful editing option is burried in GLOBAL mode.....
Now if you jump to Motif or Fantom you can easily edit the kits right from the song and the tweaks are kept with THAT song.........


dustymaestro wrote:
Ouch, there's no editing other than global mode? No program editing?




Well I can't see why you can't access these Drum parameters whilst inside Seq/prog/Combi modes from a external sequencer/Editor thats able to send System Exclusive messages,given there will be plenty of users who are getting it for the computer integration anyway suspect many won't be using its seq mode standalone so these tweaks should be possible without having to revert back to global mode all the time,and at the same time everytime you load that song file again containing those sys ex tweaks your not stuck with having to go back and forth between modes to write drumkits and progs inside the Kronos for little tweaks the parameters will simply revert to how you edited them when the song file is played.

Should be easy enough for someone with a little knowledge of System exclusive messages to quickly make up a template editor for all the usual parameters on a software platform sequencer,I've made several templates on the Novation remote Zero thats able to send system exclusive strings to edit various synths and stuff in the studio things not accessible via standard CC's or hidden inside there main midi modes,A little bit of time creating Editors like this will save you hours of hairpulling and frustration.

There's no real excuse not to do these things with software options nowadays so you can simply load up the editor and tweak at will,I used to make sys exclusive template editors for Cubase back in the Atari days of the 90s so should be a doddle for todays software features to make a basic template.
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Mike Conway
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dustymaestro wrote:
Ouch, there's no editing other than global mode? No program editing?


As Shakil described - notemapping, layers, panning, offsets and FX assignments (Send Levels, etc.) are made in GLOBAL mode.

There is also Program mode. This is where you set the main Filter, Amp, KARMA and IFX/MFX/TFX settings.

In the above example about the snare reverb, you could just adjust Reverb in the Program or Song. Each drum kit is usually assigned to 5 Insert FX, so snares go to one, basses to another, high hats to another and so on. The snare reverb won't affect the bass or high hat reverb, so I would suggest just changing the individual effect in SONG IFX mode.


It's probably similar for Kronos, but on the OASYS - when you press GLOBAL, you will hear the effects from whatever Program you are currently on. If you press GLOBAL while playing a Guitar Program, you will hear the drums through that Guitar Program's effects. Make sure you have the program with the effects that you want, then press GLOBAL.

The OASYS comes with around 2,800 drum samples, via base load "ROM" samples and the EXs1 ROM Expansion. The Kronos has those, plus EXs8 Rock Ambience Drums and EXs9 Jazz Ambience Drums.... and possibly more in the new EXs5 ROM Expansion 2, which has me curious as to what samples are in there.
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Akos Janca
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alternatively, if you want to handle the snare completely separated, then copy the snare MIDI events to another track. (Then, of course, erase or mute the snare in the original drum track.)
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could see halting the creative process if, say, the house was on fire -- but wouldn't it be just as easy to make a note to "tweak the snare" and keep going? Tweak at leisure after the fact - the same way you would experiment with a different synth or pad on another part.

Korg gives you extra user kits (and more than a couple at that) and user program slots for just this reason.



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Shakil
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kontrol49 wrote:
Well I can't see why you can't access these Drum parameters whilst inside Seq/prog/Combi modes from a external sequencer/Editor thats able to send System Exclusive messages,


Sure, can you tell me which editor can do this for M3/ kronos/Oasys?

The point relates to be able to edit the programs from the sequencer, including drums.

The hardware sequencer model has changed with time... the division between song and progra modes has blurred in other workstations, so you can seemlessly designing/customizing the sounds for the current song.

bill baker wrote:
I could see halting the creative process if, say, the house was on fire -- but wouldn't it be just as easy to make a note to "tweak the snare" and keep going? Tweak at leisure after the fact - the same way you would experiment with a different synth or pad on another part.


No, it is not same for drums. Yes, you get the tone adjust parameters you can play with, but those affect ALL drums on a track. Also if you change the kit, it will change all other drums too.

Yes, there is option to put kicks, snares, hats, etc on different tracks. But, again, if you have to modify or layer the sound on same note.... it is not possible from song.

Even if Kronos would pull the currently selected program on the track when switching from song to program, it would make it more fluid than to switch the mode, then search the program, then search the kit, before tweaking... If there would be a button, similar to track edit, 'program edit', and pressing that would take directly to edit screen of the program on that track, it would so much less annoying..... to me at least.

By the way the new drums samples in Kronos are very nice... there are dry and wet samples of same kits. Most of them arexacoustic kits for rock, funk, jazz ..etc I didn't see many new ethnic percussions.
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully the Kronos does a better job of making the User Drum Patterns accesible.

In the M3 it's alot of work/steps to take a preset drum pattern and put it into a User drum pattern. So much so that it discourages one of the purposes in User drum patterns: someplace to put my favorite drum patterns (I see no other way of organizing them).

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Akos Janca
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:
Even if Kronos would pull the currently selected program on the track when switching from song to program, it would make it more fluid than to switch the mode, then search the program, then search the kit, before tweaking... If there would be a button, similar to track edit, 'program edit', and pressing that would take directly to edit screen of the program on that track, it would so much less annoying..... to me at least.


Very good ideas. They seem to be achievable improvements and would help a lot.
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil,

Couple of points --

"So, in the middle of SONG1 you realize that the snare is not that tight and need to cut reverb on it.... or layer a sample on top of it (1) ...... you are out of luck..... you can't customize the kit for this song (2) ... you have to stop the sequencer, find which drum kit is being used for the program, call that kit in Global mode, find the snare key, edit/tweak it, and the save the kit (3)..... guess what? All programs using that kit have this tweaked snare, which you only wanted to do for THIS Song.... (4)"

(1) A sample is layered in using a separate track that would be triggered using a midi note event - I believe that this is the case whatever synth you're using.

(2) Yes you can - in global mode - any snare sample cabe be written into a kit.

(3) Snare key for most Korg kits is one of 3 keys - not a difficult search.

(4) No, but if you want to save this kit for you're signature sound on a series of songs or this individual song you can.

NOTE: You don't HAVE to overwrite the multi-referenced factory kit in order to save a kit; you save it as a new kit (global) and program - that's what I was talking about in citing available slots for user kits.

If you want a kit with an 808 bass kick and a tight poppy pic snare you can do it - and dropping that snare into the factory Beatbox or Analog kit you're already 90% happy with is one way.

Kronos gives you 8 extra track (vice my TRex) - and (I think) double the associated effects busses - so a separate snare track or that sample layer you want to drop in is not out of the question.



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